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The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

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  • Stern willing to meet today, Hunter not sure...

    As David Stern tries to hold off his most rabid hardline owners, the NBA’s commissioner has expressed a willingness to meet with the Players Association with the possibility of relenting on some system issues that are important to the union in reaching an agreement, league sources told Yahoo! Sports.

    Nevertheless, union executive director Billy Hunter was still deciding late Monday whether he wanted to take the meeting, two sources involved in the talks told Yahoo! Sports. The reason for Hunter’s hesitation was unclear.

    As one ownership source told Yahoo! Sports on Monday night, “If there were a couple of tweaks needed around the edges – not fundamental deal points – I believe there could be a deal if everything else is agreed upon. But there needs to be a meeting with David and Billy for anything to happen.”
    Source: Yahoo Sports

    Hunter is really confusing to follow. He's on the edge of the plank and the guy holding the sword is saying "I'm willing to talk this through one more time" but Hunter is looking down at the shark infested water and saying "I don't know about that... Let me get back to you".


    • This is better than those reality shows (eg Hard Knocks). I have never followed in detail the high wire act (a very good poker game like) the contestants are engaged in. Unlike some of the other stoppages there seems to be a lot of leakage here...or am I mistaken because I am following this more closely?
      Last edited by Bendit; Tue Nov 8, 2011, 02:10 PM.


      • Hey so who is the raptors' player rep anyway?
        Eh follow my TWITTER!


        • Bayless.


          • blackjitsu wrote: View Post
            Owners hated what the Heatles did but the public loved it, and the public drives the league. All the charity games are strategic, they keep the players in the public, show them as charitable people. You are right though, you would think all the top players would be at the negotiations in suits. The optics of that would be pretty intimidating to the owners.

            That being said, owners can't gather fan support by putting on charity events. However, I felt the NHL won their lockout by winning the public over. The public knew back then that a number of teams were in real trouble. Everyone knew who those teams were and blamed the greedy players. Struggling owners in the NBA should explain to the public that proper profit sharing won't solve all their problems. They own a TV network, have direct access to media -- maybe they should paint a picture with the tools they have. I don't feel that they are.
            And yet, check any fan polls out there, and most are strongly in favour of the owners. I think they've done a good job. You really don't need to sell your position in the negotiations to the fans anyway. The real PR work comes after the new CBA is signed and they're both -- players and owners alike -- re-motivated to pull the disillusioned fans back in.

            It'll be the same as after the Malice at the Palace -- there will be some significant "We're sorry, please love us again" effort on the part of the NBA as a whole. They're adversaries now, but they'll be partners again as soon as an agreement is signed. They both stand to lose/gain by fans' perceptions.
            Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.


            • In the NBA forum, I jokingly suggested this as a solution to the problem:

              As to the OP. I doubt that the players will sign by Wed. Should they? Probably. My only real view on it is that whatever deal is reached, it should address the financial concerns of the vast majority of the NBA teams, but I dont think it should be so lopsided that it fixes everything for even the most struggling squad. If the new agreement restores some balance of money/power/competitiveness, then it gives the most struggling teams a chance, over time to turn a profit. If if allows a profit regardless of the product on the court, then I think if goes too far in the owners favour. I dont know enough about the nuts and bolts of the deal or the situation to know where the current agreement on the table sits.


              • The players union has called this an excessively harsh deal, and not one worth serious consideration. It is far better for owners than the last CBA, to be sure.

                But it's not nearly enough for hardliners like Paul Allen, Dan Gilbert, Michael Jordan and the like. Several sources confirm what Chris Broussard wrote last night, which is that many owners are praying the players will reject Stern's deal, which they see as excessively generous:
                "There are at least 15 owners who are praying that the players say no,'' one source said, "because then they'll get the deal they want.''
                The longer the lockout drags on, the more paychecks players miss, the clearer it is who has the better leverage, and the tougher the deal the owners can force on the players.
                There are differing opinions on this, but one expert suggests that, thanks in no small part to various tax effects, for every dollar owners lose in a lockout, the players lose six.

                Source: Henry Abbot ESPN

                Looks like there are at least some owners who would call the players bluff on decertification.
                Last edited by ezz_bee; Tue Nov 8, 2011, 02:35 PM.
                "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon


                • It has Julian Wright as our back up player rep... funny stuff!
                  "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                  "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                  "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon


                  • I'm not surprised that MLSE are not part of the hardliners. I've been saying it all along that Toronto is not one of the have-nots. At least not financially. I've also never bought the "cheap" argument that so many fans seem to spout about them. I mean, they're certainly not Mark Cuban, but the complaint that they've never gone into the luxury tax range as proof of them not wanting to spend money doesn't make sense when you realize that the team has never been in a position that going over the tax threshold made sense. Get out of the first round first. Then spend the money.

                    And for those that care, I've finally posted again on my blog about the lockout...
                    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                    Follow me on Twitter.


                    • David Stern interview with Stephen A. Smith


                      On his overall thoughts about the lockout:

                      “Well both parties are pretty adamant about their positions. We’ve had a lot of meetings, probably 40 and we’ve narrowed the issues pretty well but currently stuck on a few. It seems like we just can’t get our act together to hone in on it and finish it off. I thought we were close last week. We had gotten to a place before where with a 50/50 deal we could’ve played 82 games but it wasn’t to be and so now I’ve persuaded our owners that we should make the 50/50 deal, hold it open, play as many games as we can, and hopefully the players will decide to do that at either a player rep meeting that they have tomorrow in New York or a subsequent that they may take to affirm a deal that the player reps recommend because on Wednesday the labor relations committee is prepared to go to another offer that is considerably lower than the one that we have on the table now.”

                      On owners that are not happy with the 50/50 offer:

                      “I think there’s some number of owners that thought the labor relations committee had moved too fast. Originally they asked for guaranteed contracts and gave it up, originally they asked for a hard cap and gave it up, originally they asked for a much lower percentage and moved to 50/50, originally they asked for mid-level exceptions and Bird contracts and gave it up, originally they asked for salary rollbacks and gave it up. That’s what happens in negotiations and I’m really good on where the labor relations committee was. I disagree with owners who feel they’ve gone too far but they’ve now gone as far as they can go and if the offer is not accepted by Wednesday at the close of business there will be a new and more difficult offer put on the table which is a recognition that it’s time to make the deal because the next offer is going to be more reflective of the business issues that the NBA is facing.”

                      On the idea that the players are making all the concessions:

                      I would argue that if I were them also. But another view on this is by working together with us over the last number of years, 30 years or so, we’ve taken the average player salary from 250 thousand dollars a year to well over five million and if we make the changes that are in the owners current proposal we will take a small step back from the $5.5 million average salary to something above five and we will grow it over the life of the proposal to well over seven million dollars. This at a time when there’s nine percent unemployment, when all of the risk on this business is on the owners and the five or six thousand other people who help make it. We think it’s a very fair accommodation. We’re giving them the benefit really of keeping them pretty close to where they are under a system that is no longer sustainable. If you ask the people at the Ford plants, the GM plants, the other plants that no longer exist and you look at public workers and the cutbacks that are going on, we think that our players deserve to be kept as close as we possibly can to what they’ve earned under the old deal and keep them growing after we take that reset. We think it’s eminently fair and reasonable and we think that when you look around and look at the deals that are being made out there in the public sector, the private sector with give back after give back, being a member of the highest paid Union in the world whose wages and compensation continue to rise is not a bad deal.



                      • ezz_bee wrote: View Post
                        It has Julian Wright as our back up player rep... funny stuff!
                        I know. So what if Bayless can't make a meeting? Is Wright going to refuse to enter the meeting because the players are getting hosed?


                        • In an interview with ESPN on Monday, Stern downplayed the threat of decertification of the union, an option that could be more strongly considered if the backup proposal gets put on the table. A lengthy court fight almost certainly would wipe out the entire 2011-12 season.

                          "The reality is that that decertification route, or something like it, was tried by the NFL players and the Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit soundly rejected the attempt," Stern said on "SportsCenter," referring to the NFL Players Association's decertification process during that league's summer labor dispute. "I just don't know what they're thinking."

                          Obviously he isn't going to say, "We don't want the players to decertify because then we are screwed." However he does raise a valid point that the appeal was overturned and there were unresolved issues with the NFL situation. For what the players are fighting for, the risks far outweigh the rewards in my opinion.

                          I also stand by my opinion that many of these players have never heard, "No." before and are having a hissy fit because of it.


                          • Tolliver's take:

                            Timberwolves forward Anthony Tolliver is heading to New York City on a red-eye flight late tonight – Monday night -- for Tuesday’s meeting of team player reps sounding as torn about how to proceed as he says his teammates and league peers seem to be.

                            Their most obvious options as Wednesday’s league-issued, take-it-or-leave-it ultimatum approaches: Decide to put an offer that has universally angered players to a vote or proceed toward decertifying the union, a complicated move that if followed through would send the matter to the courts and almost certainly scuttle this season.

                            “Pretty much everything is split,” he said on his way to the airport after playing in a charity game in Salt Lake City on Monday night. “Half of the people want to decertify. Half the people want to vote on it.”

                            His unofficial polling includes some teammates and other players in the league. He said he hopes to speak to more of his teammates before the 30 team player reps meeting starting at noon Minneapolis time Tuesday afternoon.
                            Source: Star Tribune

                            He's pretty much saying that based on his discussions with players pretty much no one has Fisher and Hunter's back.


                            • I don't understand why any of the rank and file players would want to decertify. The season will be lost and they won't ever make that money back. Ironically, the only people that would really benefit from getting a better deal are the long term players with good contracts and they don't really need it.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                              Follow me on Twitter.


                              • Via

                                daldridgetnt Hunter: 5 major issues: repeater tax, escrow, sign and trade restrictions, "cliff" for teams that go into tax, mid-level for tax payers.

                                IraHeatBeat Billy Hunter essentially calling David Stern's bluff, says he believes 50-50 will still be there.

                                sheridanhoops B.Hunter said M.Jordan should take the same advice he gave to Abe Pollin 13 years ago: If you can't make profit, sell your team.

                                JoshuaBRobbins Billy Hunter on Michael Jordan: "I would give him the advice he gave to Abe Pollin."
                                Al Iannazzone: Hunter: The NBPA is going to reach out tonight or tomorrow to Commissioner Stern and see if they want to sit down and talk more.
                                David Aldridge: Hunter: Hearing from "underground" that league will threaten to cancel games thru Christmas if union doesn't agree by Wednesday...

                                We'll see what all the posturing brings by tomorrow.

                                It doesn't seem as if the union is taking it seriously that this is the best offer they will see.

                                It also doesn't seem that Hunter never watched what happened to NBA players when they talked smack when Jordan played. I don't think he will approach business any differently.

                                At least I can thank Billy and the players for ensuring we get a true hard cap in the NBA.

                                KevinDing By agreeing to 50/50 BRI split, NBA players basically gave in. But by denying Stern's ultimatum and citing system, they at least save face.
                                Last edited by mcHAPPY; Tue Nov 8, 2011, 06:22 PM.