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The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

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  • The ominous response from one source connected to the NBPA, who expects the union to reject the proposal next week after learning of the tweaks offered by the league on the five or so "system" issues that have kept the parties at an impasse: "Nothing was addressed. It's basically the same offer as it was before.

    "No way this deal gets taken (by the players). They didn't move on any system issues that concerned us. It's still basically (like) a hard cap with very restrictive rules for player movement."
    Source: ESPN

    Via Twitter:

    Alan Hahn: This alarmed me: when I asked what was changed in the revised proposal, union source replies, "It may have gotten worse. It's debatable."
    More money and another year added to MLE for tax payers and another new $2.5M exemption?

    It does not appear this CBA is given to be accepted by players. Stunned does not even begin to describe the players in my opinion. They are in the situation to go from losing 2 cheques to 1 and play a 72 game season starting on the 15th of September with a system that will see them continue to make MORE money than now despite the 'giveback' - wow, they really do not have a clue whatsoever.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Fri Nov 11, 2011, 08:44 AM.

    Comment


    • Ken Berger/CBSSports.com view

      If the owners' proposal passed, a new 72-game schedule would be drawn up -- deputy commissioner Adam Silver said those logistics already have been handled -- and a breakneck, one- or two-week free agency period would ensue along with shortened training camps and a limited preseason schedule. The marquee Christmas Day games would be preserved, and All-Star weekend would occur as scheduled Feb. 24-26 in Orlando.

      "I'm hoping personally that's where we are now and we can get back to playing," Silver said. "But I understand from the union's standpoint it's a difficult pill to swallow right now. But that, once again, over time, we'll be proven right and this will be a better league for the players, the teams and the fans."

      Union president Derek Fisher, sitting next to Hunter with several forlorn committee members standing behind him, seemed to hold out hope for a replay of what transpired over the past few days -- when the players successfully stopped the clock on Stern's Wednesday ultimatum to accept his previous proposal. After meeting with the reps, Fisher said the plan would be "either continue to negotiate currently from where we are or realize that maybe the NBA, this is their last, best offer and we’ll have to make decisions accordingly at that point."

      Stern, who spoke with reporters after Fisher and Hunter, made it clear that the only choice was the one behind curtain No. 2.

      "The negotiations are over," Stern said. "The negotiations on this proposal are over."
      Like most moves the league has made in the negotiations, which hit Day No. 133 Thursday since the lockout was imposed July 1, the characterization of this proposal as "revised" was a stretch, according to multiple people familiar with it. Among the tweaks to the unresolved system issues entering the past two days of talks, the owners agreed to increase the mid-level exception for luxury tax-paying teams to three-year deals starting at $3 million. The exception, which was for two years starting at $2.5 million under the previous proposal, would be available every other year for teams above the tax threshold.

      Though full details of the owners' revisions weren't crystallized Thursday night, it is believed that they agreed to make sign-and-trade transactions available to tax-paying teams with certain restrictions and make other minor revisions to issues the players indicated they needed changed in return for their economic concession from 51 percent of BRI to 50: the luxury tax "cliff" that affects teams that wade into the tax and the repeater tax for teams that stay above the tax threshold for a third time in five years.

      Given that teams have only remained over the tax that long seven times since the luxury tax was introduced in 2005, according to NBA TV, the issue wasn't one of substantial concern Thursday, according to sources in the negotiating room.
      However, some new issues came to the forefront that concerned the players' negotiators when it became clear that the league's proposal would restrict teams from using a full mid-level exception -- four-year deals starting at $5 million -- if the signing itself pushed the team over the tax. Union negotiators want the mid-level restriction to kick in only if the team already is above the tax line before it uses the exception. The league's version is the one that is in the current proposal, according to a person who has seen it.
      This is something I agree with the players on.

      Despite the losses incurred by the players, not the least of which is an average $300 million-a-year giveback that absolves all the losses the league said it was suffering, the union did preserve several system provisions that would evaporate if the league reverted to its 47 percent proposal next week. Among the most important items, the union fought off the league's attempt to impose a hard team salary cap and maintained the structure of max contracts. And although the players would give back $3 billion over 10 years, with a conservative estimate of 4.5 percent annual revenue growth, player salaries would grow to nearly $3 billion by the 10th year of the deal.

      And while salaries and benefits would stay flat at approximately $2.17 billion for the first two years of the deal, that provision would allow the league to keep the salary cap ($58 million) and luxury-tax level ($70 million) unchanged until adjustments for the new system would take hold in the third year.
      Source: Ken Berger/CBSSports.com

      So with their 'giveback' the players still get to keep salary and benefits the same for the next 2 years with the same soft cap and tax AND in 10 years they could be getting nearly 50% of the salary they currently are.

      I'm sorry but players you are bordering on d!ckhead territory.

      Comment


      • The NBA and NBPA have passed the responsibility of agreeing to a deal back and forth over the last week, with both sides strategically putting the decision to save the season in the opposition’s hands.

        The owners’ ultimatum was the first attempt to put the decision on the NBPA’s shoulders. However, the union countered by ignoring Stern’s ‘Wednesday at 5 p.m.’ deadline, choosing instead to return to the bargaining table. Now, with this revised proposal, Stern has passed the hot potato back to the players, and he made sure to close his press conference saying, “We await the union’s response.”

        One reason for optimism is that the two sides have started to discuss the 30 to 40 secondary issues that must be still resolved such as the age limit, commissioner discipline and drug policy. Those issues hadn’t been discussed in the past because the two sides were so far apart that a deal wasn’t in sight. The fact that they’re working out all of the minor details has to be a good sign.

        Then again, there have been so many false alarms and unexpected twists throughout this process that it’s impossible to tell what lies ahead. The only thing we know for certain is that on Monday, the NBPA will decide what their next step is and determine where the talks go from here.

        Source: HoopsWorld.com

        Maybe the league can throw the players a bone and be much more giving on the 30-40 secondary issues. It would help their cause in repairing damaged player/league relations. It would also help their cause should the players ever decertify. Most importantly, it would help my cause as a Raptors fan with the 2012 draft

        Comment


        • Chris Mannix: The minimum payroll is going to be 85 percent. That's not a new addition to deal. It's in my report yesterday. Twitter

          With a $58M cap, this means the last CBA had teams with a minimum payroll of $43.5M. 85% will see minimum payroll of $49.3M.

          Comment


          • In all the deal looks like this:

            - The biannual exception will be available only to nontaxpaying teams. The NBA will allow sign and trade deals for tax paying teams, on a limited and restricted basis.

            - Extend-and-trade deals, such as the one signed by Carmelo Anthony last season, will be prohibited.

            - The midlevel exception will be set at $5 million for nontaxpaying teams, with a maximum length between three and four years (alternating annually). The value of the exception will grow by 3 percent annually, starting in Year 3. The Mid-Level would not be available to a team if its use would push them into luxury tax.

            - The mini-midlevel exception will be set at $3 million for taxpaying teams, with a maximum length of three years, and cannot be used in consecutive years. Its value will also grow at 3 percent annually.

            - A 10 percent escrow tax will be withheld from player salaries, to ensure that player earnings do not exceed 50 percent of league revenues. An additional withholding will be applied in Year 1 “to account for business uncertainty” stemming from the lockout.

            - Maximum contract lengths will be five years for “Bird” free agents and four years for others.

            - Annual contract increases will be 5.5 percent for “Bird” players and 3.5 percent for others.

            - Players will be paid a prorated share of their 2011-12 salaries, based on the number of games played once the season starts, with a 72-game season on the table.

            - Team and player contract options will be prohibited in new contracts, other than rookie deals. But a player can opt out of the final year of a contract if he agrees to zero salary protection (i.e., if it is nonguaranteed).

            - The Basketball Related Revenue Split will be 50-50, with the NBA locking in salaries and benefits equal to last season for the first two years of the deal insuring the players lose no money in accepting a reduced BRI share.

            - The Luxury Tax would be an escalating tax based on tiers over the tax line. The tax will increase for every $5 million spent beyond the established line – starting at $70 million in the first year of the labor deal. Teams would be charged a tax of $1.50 for every dollar over the $70 million tax line. That number increases to $1.75 after $5 million over ($75 million), $2.25 after $10 million ($80 million) and $3 after $15 million ($85 million).

            - The Repeater Tax would offer an additional $1 charge to each tax tier for teams that exceed the Luxury Tax more than three times in a five year span. Allowing teams to dip into the Luxury Tax, but penalize teams who stay above the tax line for too long.

            - There will be a one-time Amnesty Cut allowed. 100% of this cut will be removed from the Luxury Tax and the Salary cap, however 100% of the cut salary will be paid in full to the player and the value of the cut contract will count towards the BRI calculation.

            David Stern established that the “clock” on the NBA’s offer would remain stopped to allow for the NBPA to assemble its player representatives and discuss the deal on the table, with an established timeline of Monday at the earliest and Tuesday at the latest to receive an answer.
            SOurce: HoopsWorld.com

            Comment


            • So it appears that N.B.A. will either hold a 72-game season or shut down until the fall of 2012. When a reporter raised that possibility, Stern responded with cutting sarcasm, saying, “I don’t have your collective bargaining expertise or your crystal ball.”

              Asked what would happen if the union rejected the N.B.A.’s last offer, Stern said, “Then we’ll be awaiting their call for the next negotiating session over our 47 percent proposal and our flex cap.”

              Stern made a similar ultimatum earlier in the week, then relented and returned to the bargaining table. But the hardline owners who are driving this negotiation are not giving Stern the latitude to move much further, if at all.

              Although the union considered previous ultimatums and deadlines to be idle threats, Hunter did not challenge this one.

              “I actually think he’s taken it quite seriously,” Stern said.
              http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/11/sp...ewanted=1&_r=1



              Watching the 2 press conferences on NBA.com, as I have with all the others, I get a very different feel from both sides. I think the above quotes are very real and the end is here. I could be wrong. Like I said before, hopefully the league is very giving on the 'secondary' 30-40 issues.

              Comment


              • This doesn't seem that bad to me from the players' perspective. They only get 50% of BRI anyway, which is reflected in the cap level. There is also some room to the tax level. You look at that and the 85% floor for salaries and it's hard for me to imagine that aggregate salaries in a year don't look close to 50%....

                No question the owners are really hammering down on unrestricted free agents but it strikes me that in a practical sense it won't make a huge difference. Teams will still do the Miami thing and ensure cap room for elite FAs and mid-level guys might see some nice paydays as teams struggle to get to the 85% floor.

                I'm actually just excited to see which team is going to pay Kwame Brown and Kris Humphries$9mm/year for 4 years. C'mon players, sign-off and let the senseless free agency spending begin!

                Comment


                • The floor can be quite dangerous for teams that have a lot of rookie contracts (like the Raptors). That would mean holding on to players like Bargnani since he gets paid well, and then signing on other scrubs for $5mil a year when they aren't worth half that. You really need good management when you have a floor to work with.

                  Comment


                  • planetmars wrote: View Post
                    The floor can be quite dangerous for teams that have a lot of rookie contracts (like the Raptors). That would mean holding on to players like Bargnani since he gets paid well, and then signing on other scrubs for $5mil a year when they aren't worth half that. You really need good management when you have a floor to work with.
                    The Raps have $47M in salaries lined up for next season with 10 players under contract. To get to 13, even if they signed just minimum contracts, they will meet the $49.3M.


                    For 2012-13, the Raps currently have 7 players at $39.5M plus JV and 2012 rookie at about another $7M for 9 players and $46.5M with another 4 players needed and only $3M to reach the floor.


                    I don't think they will have too many problems near term. Shedding Calderon's contract could make them a very big player on the 2012 free agent market with their biggest need being PG and a number of top and very good PG's available.

                    Comment


                    • Actually every team except the Kings in 2010-2011 had a payroll higher than the projected floor for next year according to this Wiki link:

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010%E2...layer_salaries

                      The floor should be very easy to reach for most teams.
                      Last edited by planetmars; Fri Nov 11, 2011, 11:33 AM. Reason: typo

                      Comment


                      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/11/sp...ewanted=1&_r=1



                        Watching the 2 press conferences on NBA.com, as I have with all the others, I get a very different feel from both sides. I think the above quotes are very real and the end is here. I could be wrong. Like I said before, hopefully the league is very giving on the 'secondary' 30-40 issues.
                        Glad to see the end may be coming near..... its the same with any negotiations though, takes the hardliners (on both sides) to shut their mouths and then things get done.

                        Wonder if Stern has ever heard the story of the boy who cried wolf though? His 'its gonna get worse if you don't accept this' sounds more hollow every time he says it. Ah well.... maybe it strokes his ego. And if it makes him feel real good about himself, I'm sure BC mom can starch some high collared shirts for him.

                        Comment


                        • Maybe a new poll should be setup...will (not should) the players take the deal: yes, no or more negotiation (if Stern is posturing here).

                          Comment


                          • Previous offer had 2 year, $2.5 mini-MLE every OTHER year for tax payers.

                            Newest offer has 3 year, $3M mini-MLE EVERY year for tax payers.

                            To me, that is a big move from the league and fires the players argument of restricted player movement in the trash. They can go where they want - just not for top dollar.


                            Chris_Broussard Changes in owners new proposal: mini midlevel for luxury tax teams from $2.5 million every other year to $3 million EVERY YEAR

                            It would be interesting to know the restrictions of sign and trade for tax payers.

                            Comment


                            • slaw wrote: View Post
                              C'mon players, sign-off and let the senseless free agency spending begin!
                              When even Slaw comes out and says it's time for the players to accept the new deal it's hard to see any scenario where the player's don't take the deal.

                              Unfortunately I don't think they will... I'll in africa for 2012, probably with sketchy internet at best, so I guess a lost season won't be the worst thing.

                              Anyone who advocates to the players that they shouldn't take this deal is really doing a dis-service to the players in my opinion.

                              Stupid NBA PA!
                              "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                              "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                              "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

                              Comment


                              • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                                Glad to see the end may be coming near..... its the same with any negotiations though, takes the hardliners (on both sides) to shut their mouths and then things get done.

                                Wonder if Stern has ever heard the story of the boy who cried wolf though? His 'its gonna get worse if you don't accept this' sounds more hollow every time he says it. Ah well.... maybe it strokes his ego. And if it makes him feel real good about himself, I'm sure BC mom can starch some high collared shirts for him.
                                I understand what you are saying about the perceived threats but I do believe it has had the desired effect so far. I mean what is he supposed to say when he is asked a direct question about what the NBA's position will be if the union answer is negative. A wishy washy one might be taken as an invitation he is up for some more tete-a-tete. Unlike some of the crass metaphoric slavemaster type rhetoric he has been quite professional in his I think.

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