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The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

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  • The funny thing to me is that (as was posted here a few days ago) most if not all of the financial benefits the owners and players are fighting for in a 6 year deal will be lost by January 2012 if the lockout continues. Even funnier, is that both the players and owners know this! Yet, they both persist.

    The phrase cutting off your nose to spite your face seems appropriate.

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    • Matt52 wrote: View Post
      The BRI came in to effect in the 1998-99 lockout. It has been at 57% ever since.
      Interesting. Thanks.

      Matt52 wrote: View Post
      The players initially wanted to stay the same - 57%.

      The owners initially wanted to move to 40%.

      I don't mean to split hairs but by this the players have moved 4% and the owners 10%.
      I don't buy this chain of reasoning. The owners could have picked any starting point. They plainly knew that the players would never accept 40%, they just started there in order to drive a hard bargain. That's fine, but by this reasoning, the players should have started at 65%, and then we'd all be talking about how reasonable they were for coming down 12% from their original starting point.

      Incidentally, Apollo, unemployment in the US among college grads is only 4.3%. It's unemployment among people who didn't go to college, or who started and then dropped out, that's the big problem: 21%.

      Comment


      • For comparison, the NHL is at a 57% split, and that was after a year of being locked out.
        I think the NFL just recently agreed upon a near 50-50 split.

        I think with the NBA being right in the middle of those two in terms of general revenue, 53% sounds fair.
        Whether that actually makes sense, I don't care anymore. haha This whole thing stopped making sense when they agreed to take losses greater than the amount they are negotiating over. (Roughly $130M for next season)

        Comment


        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
          The NBA is the factory that produces the product.

          Flip side of the coin which is more likely at any job or in any industry or profession:

          How about the players just accept the deal or try to get as good a contract elsewhere if they don't like it.

          Why don't they? Because at the end of the day they are workers who will never have it as good elsewhere.
          To me, the NBA/MLB/NHL/NFL are more akin to professional services businesses - think accounting and law firms. The NBA is the best basketball league in the world because it pays more than any other league. It pays more because it knows if it didn't it would lose the best players and no longer be the best league. It's why the top accounting and law firms pay more for people than anyone else - to be the best you have to pay the best the most money. The players (lawyers/accountants), in turn, benefit from the platform and resources the league has to offer. The best accountant/lawyer in the world won't make as much in Whitby or Sudbury as he could in London or New York cause by himself he can't establish a platform big enough.

          As for your last question, I could flip it around: why don't the owners just accept the deal or go find other players? Simple, just like the players can't walk away neither can the owners. They are stuck with each other. Fans aren't going to pay NBA level prices to watch D-League basketball and it would be extraordinarily difficult to establish a new, competitive league - look at how long the NBA took to build itself.

          Comment


          • Ajar wrote: View Post
            Interesting. Thanks.


            I don't buy this chain of reasoning. The owners could have picked any starting point. They plainly knew that the players would never accept 40%, they just started there in order to drive a hard bargain. That's fine, but by this reasoning, the players should have started at 65%, and then we'd all be talking about how reasonable they were for coming down 12% from their original starting point.

            Incidentally, Apollo, unemployment in the US among college grads is only 4.3%. It's unemployment among people who didn't go to college, or who started and then dropped out, that's the big problem: 21%.
            There have been discussions along these lines already.

            One could say the position of 57% was just as ludicrous as 40% because as much as we knew the players would never go for 40% we knew the owners would not go for 57%.

            The reality is both sides started off unrealistic.

            The players move to 54% was their first reasonable offer as was the owners 46%.

            Either way, they got to within 3% plus or minus and neither side would give up the final 1.5% each - although that might be a little too simplistic a view.

            Comment


            • Bummer for sure. For a minute there it looked like something might be worked out.

              I'm beginning to suffer from bball withdrawal.

              Comment


              • slaw wrote: View Post
                To me, the NBA/MLB/NHL/NFL are more akin to professional services businesses - think accounting and law firms. The NBA is the best basketball league in the world because it pays more than any other league. It pays more because it knows if it didn't it would lose the best players and no longer be the best league. It's why the top accounting and law firms pay more for people than anyone else - to be the best you have to pay the best the most money. The players (lawyers/accountants), in turn, benefit from the platform and resources the league has to offer. The best accountant/lawyer in the world won't make as much in Whitby or Sudbury as he could in London or New York cause by himself he can't establish a platform big enough.

                As for your last question, I could flip it around: why don't the owners just accept the deal or go find other players? Simple, just like the players can't walk away neither can the owners. They are stuck with each other. Fans aren't going to pay NBA level prices to watch D-League basketball and it would be extraordinarily difficult to establish a new, competitive league - look at how long the NBA took to build itself.
                How has Warren Buffet created billions from Omaha?

                The owners may very well do what you propose. However in doing such a thing they open themselves up to a whole host of other issues. That would like the government firing members of a union over a labour dispute - when they hold all the power they just wait the workers out (or government could order back to work).


                Bottom line here: the owners own for a reason. The players will never win a pissing match with the owners. People can talk about fairness or rights or whatever all they want but at the end of the day the bosses have the final say.

                Owners: Bosses.
                PLayers: Workers.

                Comment


                • Disgusting. Thats all i can say. Actually no, i want to say more, hehehe.
                  Im on the owner's side on this one.
                  Theyre the one's who shoulder all the costs, and these players get all the luxury.
                  Sure the players make the team but who gets the sh*t from the fans when teams dont do good? The players initially, but when they move on to other teams, the owners are the ones who get the brunt of the disdain.

                  I dont know why the other players are not showing their displeasure here, who cares about Durant, Lebron, Wade and all those other primadonnas, theyre making gazillions already and they still want more. Instead of holding out for more money, shouldnt they be thinking about their co-players who are the 8th, 9th, 10th men on the team, earning 100x less than they are? and because of this lockout are not earning anything to feed their families? theyre the victims here.

                  If you have the 2 greediest players in the world rallying the other players not to take the deal, then this season and all the future seasons for that matter is pretty much doomed.

                  Comment


                  • tbihis wrote: View Post
                    Disgusting. Thats all i can say. Actually no, i want to say more, hehehe.
                    Im on the owner's side on this one.
                    Theyre the one's who shoulder all the costs, and these players get all the luxury.
                    Sure the players make the team but who gets the sh*t from the fans when teams dont do good? The players initially, but when they move on to other teams, the owners are the ones who get the brunt of the disdain.

                    I dont know why the other players are not showing their displeasure here, who cares about Durant, Lebron, Wade and all those other primadonnas, theyre making gazillions already and they still want more. Instead of holding out for more money, shouldnt they be thinking about their co-players who are the 8th, 9th, 10th men on the team, earning 100x less than they are? and because of this lockout are not earning anything to feed their families? theyre the victims here.

                    If you have the 2 greediest players in the world rallying the other players not to take the deal, then this season and all the future seasons for that matter is pretty much doomed.
                    Same here
                    Official Pope of the Raptors sponsored by MLSE.

                    Comment


                    • tbihis wrote: View Post
                      If you have the 2 greediest players in the world rallying the other players not to take the deal, then this season and all the future seasons for that matter is pretty much doomed.
                      Kinda like Magic Johnson being the spokesperson for trojan condoms.

                      ya, i went there.

                      Comment


                      • heinz57 wrote: View Post
                        Kinda like Magic Johnson being the spokesperson for trojan condoms.

                        ya, i went there.
                        Oh no you didnt!

                        Comment


                        • "I don't know that the season is in jeopardy," Hunter said. "I think it would be foolish for them to kill the season."
                          Is Billy Hunter this stunned? Last Tuesday he was saying we'll meet in a month or two or I don't know. Friday night he was saying if they want to talk to us they can fly their asses to LA. Now he is tail between the legs with the victim act?

                          The league watched with a gun to his head saying, "I'll pull the trigger! I'll do it, I swear!" Eventually the owners said, "Fire away." And now he is shocked and he put the gun back on the table.

                          Did he really think after 10 years of working with Stern that he was joking?

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                          • I don't know what the fuss is all about ! ... if this continues raptors are right in the mix for a top 3-5 pick in a stacked draft ??? SWEEET, and we don't have to watch a year of them losing to get it . Jonas V and Player X( who is better than Jonas V) , I think I would gladly sacrifice a year of watching bball for that.

                            Comment


                            • doublesman wrote: View Post
                              I don't know what the fuss is all about ! ... if this continues raptors are right in the mix for a top 3-5 pick in a stacked draft ??? SWEEET, and we don't have to watch a year of them losing to get it . Jonas V and Player X( who is better than Jonas V) , I think I would gladly sacrifice a year of watching bball for that.
                              Is this what will really happen with the 2012 draft? They just repeat the process from last year? So we could end up with a #1 pick in 2012?
                              Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

                              Comment


                              • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                Bottom line here: the owners own for a reason. The players will never win a pissing match with the owners. People can talk about fairness or rights or whatever all they want but at the end of the day the bosses have the final say.

                                Owners: Bosses.
                                PLayers: Workers.
                                Well, the owners don't really have the final say. The NBA is just a cartel. The NBAPA will only exist so long as it makes financial sense for the players (i.e. they are getting a big chunk of the BRI). Once you get to a certain number, it will no longer make financial sense. At that point, there won't be a NBAPA. And the NBA as we know it won't exist. In the unlikely event the owners all threw in the towel, a new league(s) will spring up two minutes later looking for a cut of the $4 billion.

                                Also, sports unions have historically won major battles with ownership. Free agency is the best example. And don't forget competitive leagues (WHA/ABA/AFL) that forced major changes to the dominant players.

                                My point is, both sides have an interest in doing a deal here. The owners may have more leverage in the short term but they have to consider the long term implications of a strategy that relies on breaking the union. Be careful what you wish for and all that.

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