The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

[GarbageTime]

I think the union shouldn't bring the hot heads like Garnett and Wade to the table. Acting hostile and visibly taking it personal like that shows weakness. Not to mention it's only natural for a person's defenses to go up when approached by someone with an extremely aggressive stance. Garnett needs to learn that his bully mentality isn't going to win intellectual battles. Time for him to go back to the kiddies table for a timeout.

Mention that to David Stern.

[Apollo]

Come on now. Stern isn't acting like a little boy who didn't get that dirt bike he wanted for Christmas.

[Joey]

Some insight as to what the Mediator will bring to the table today:

NEW YORK (AP) -- The NBA and players' association are ready to try mediation, and Commissioner David Stern wants results quickly.

Stern said last week during an interview with WFAN radio in New York that without a deal Tuesday, when the sides meet with federal mediator George Cohen, his "gut" was that there wouldn't be NBA basketball on Christmas.

Owners are opening two days of board meetings Wednesday, and Stern wants to be able to bring a deal to them.

But can a mediator swoop in and smooth out two years of bickering in one day?

Attorney Jay Krupin, chair of EpsteinBeckerGreen's national labor practice in Washington, doesn't think so - unless the players are prepared to concede on some issues.

"If the players want to get back on the court, then this is a great time for them to try to show that they're willing to make some type of compromise, and I think that's what it is," he said. "This is an opportunity to really determine whether or not the players are willing to make concessions. I think the owners are willing to walk away without concessions, so if the players really want to make concessions when they meet, that has to be expressed to the mediator.

"If that happens, then the burden turns to the NBA to say, 'All right, you'll be willing to make some concessions; now we're willing to talk.' If they're not willing to make concessions, then the mediation would just go on for the day and it'll let the NBA know that they probably have to cancel, go through Christmas and maybe even the rest of the season."

Players already feel they've conceded plenty financially, and they dismissed Stern's attempt to attach added importance to Tuesday's talks, with union president Derek Fisher of the Lakers saying it was just an "arbitrary deadline" for potential Christmas cancellations.

Stern was clear in the radio interview and others he gave late last week that he was just stating his opinion about further losses of games - but not about his desire for significant movement Tuesday.

"If there's a breakthrough, it's going to come on Tuesday," he told NBA TV. "And if not, I think that the season is really going to potentially escape from us because we aren't making any progress."

Cohen, who tried to resolve the NFL's labor dispute, met with the sides individually at their offices in New York on Monday. He will then oversee talks between their full bargaining committees Tuesday at a hotel.

He said last week he had already been in contact with representatives of both sides "for a number of months," so he's familiar with some of the issues that still divide them.

Players oppose a hard salary cap, and they believe owners' attempts to make the luxury tax more punitive and limit the use of spending exceptions will effectively create one. Also, each side has formally proposed receiving 53 percent of basketball-related income after players were guaranteed 57 percent under the previous collective bargaining agreement.

With so many issues remaining beyond those, it seems too much to get done in one day. Executive director Billy Hunter said Friday after meeting with players in Los Angeles that the union sought to have the whole week set aside for mediation, but that the league wouldn't commit to that because of its owners meetings.

"The Board of Governors meeting has been scheduled for a year for Wednesday and Thursday. We told the mediator that we would make ourselves available day and night on all other days," Stern said in a statement to The Associated Press.

Cohen was appointed director of the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service by President Barack Obama in 2009. He helped broker a deal between Major League Soccer and its players just before the season was scheduled to begin and was lead lawyer for the baseball players' union when it won an injunction against its owners in 1995, ending the 7 1/2-month strike.

Krupin calls Cohen "a very good mediator" and "wonderful gentleman," saying, "If there's a real interest in the parties trying to get something done, George would be able to make it happen."

But, he adds, that's dependent on the players.

"It's much easier for the federal mediator to say to the players, 'Look at the scale where we are. Really the owners have very little to lose. They made a long-term investment. As players, you have only a few years to play at your peak and the owners can hold out a lot longer than you can. So when you look at this objectively, you really should try to understand that there has to be a change in the system,"' Krupin said.

"And I think that's why the commissioner said, 'I'm going to give you Tuesday. I'm not going to meet the rest of the week.' I think that (owners) know they have the upper hand and they're giving them the opportunity to reach a deal, and so I don't see George having to put great thoughts into either side's mind. I think that George can be used as a facilitator to try to get a deal if the players really wanted one."

Source

If they don't get it done today, then it likely doesn't get done for a LONG time. Fingers crossed, guys.

[slaw]

Come on now. Stern isn't acting like a little boy who didn't get that dirt bike he wanted for Christmas.

But the owners' strategy to the entire negotiation has set up this prisoner's dilemna where the players won't agree with the owners even though it is in their own best interests to do so. But again, this has never been about getting a deal but getting the most money available. Looks like, entirely predictably by the way, it won't accomplish that either....

[Apollo]

But the owners' strategy to the entire negotiation has set up this prisoner's dilemna where the players won't agree with the owners even though it is in their own best interests to do so.

Do you really think the players are that dumb? The players are the ones who lose big if this continues. Hopefully the mediator can help get this idea across.

[Joey]

Do you really think the players are that dumb? The players are the ones who lose big if this continues. Hopefully the mediator can help get this idea across.

It's not about being 'dumb' or not.

A prisoners dilemma implies a situation where, despite the fact that it is in the best interests of both parties to cooperate, it is strategically not feasible, as doing so would leave oneself in a position of vulnerability.

The players KNOW they have the most to lose. This has to be obvious.

What they are hoping will happen, is that the owners will soon realize that without the players, then the long term investments with the owners paid for the teams etc. will have been for naught.
As I've said before, there's no way the league is looking at $4B in BRI without Lebron, KG, Durant, Kobe etc.

[slaw]

Do you really think the players are that dumb? The players are the ones who lose big if this continues. Hopefully the mediator can help get this idea across.

Man is an economic animal acting in his own best interests... except when he's not. It has turned into the classic prisoner's dilemna where a deal benefits both sides (and they will both suffer without one) but they find it too expensive or difficult to achieve cooperation.

The result is that the players are logically refusing to concede while achieving an irrational result. It isn't stupidity, it's entirely predictable and logical.

[NoPropsneeded]

i've always hated KG and if they cant get it done today because of KG i'll hate him even more(if thats possible)

[Apollo]

It's not about being 'dumb' or not.

A prisoners dilemma implies a situation where, despite the fact that it is in the best interests of both parties to cooperate, it is strategically not feasible, as doing so would leave oneself in a position of vulnerability.

The players KNOW they have the most to lose. This has to be obvious.

What they are hoping will happen, is that the owners will soon realize that without the players, then the long term investments with the owners paid for the teams etc. will have been for naught.
As I've said before, there's no way the league is looking at $4B in BRI without Lebron, KG, Durant, Kobe etc.

They're more vulnerable in little over a month once the union cheques stop coming and games that can't be fit into a condensed schedule disappear. Kevin Garnett is still going to have the big fat endorsement deal but that can't be said about James Johnson or Luke Walton or most of the league. I don't see their leverage doing anything but shrinking as games start to disappear and the average NBA player starts to need the money. So yes, if they're falling into that mindset then it's pretty flawed thinking in this scenario... But what do I know? I mean I'm not the one being pressured into fighting for a small group, who can afford a long cold winter, instead of fighting for the best interests of the majority.

[Employee]

i've always hated KG and if they cant get it done today because of KG i'll hate him even more(if thats possible)

What's even more awesome is KG is still getting paid this year because his contract is written up to defer payments or some sh*t. What a goof.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

And it makes me sad that the players who already have the most money are still the ones jawing and fighting the owners for money, while the lower-salary players are the ones who are chillin. Shouldnt the lower salary players the ones fighting coz they want the fair share? Guess not. Instead, the likes of Derozan, Curry, Wall are fighting it out in the gym, providing entertainment to the fans while playing the game that they love, for free. Now we see who's really in it for the love of the game, and the ones for the love of money.

[TheGloveinRapsUniform]

What's even more awesome is KG is still getting paid this year because his contract is written up to defer payments or some sh*t. What a goof.

I used to love KG up until he started playing in Boston and got a title. Then he went ape shit.

I guess the title went to his head.

[Employee]

They should replace KG and Wade with Grant Hill and Shane Battier.

[Bendit]

Man is an economic animal acting in his own best interests... except when he's not. It has turned into the classic prisoner's dilemna where a deal benefits both sides (and they will both suffer without one) but they find it too expensive or difficult to achieve cooperation.

The result is that the players are logically refusing to concede while achieving an irrational result. It isn't stupidity, it's entirely predictable and logical.

I beg to differ with your closing sentence. Business negotiations occur everyday with much money at stake (maybe not as much as $4B with regularity). There comes a time when one must become unemotional about doing the deal because there is a recognition about which side has most of the cards. If it isnt "stupidity" it's pretty close to it to keep refusing at the cost of even greater losses. I dont think the players (at least the ones driving the decision making) are equipped to go up against business sharks like Stern & Silver at this stage. They are too emotional. And I dont blame them particularly. Their training afterall has always been basketball.

[jimmie]

This is not a prisoner's dilemma at all. If the players "find it too expensive or difficult to achieve cooperation", then they are incredibly naive, bordering on stupid, because it's only going to get more expensive and difficult for them the longer they wait to belly under to the best deal offered by the owners. Hunter knows this, and in my opinion, he's probably kicking himself for letting the rank-and-file players in on the negotiations in the first place and setting things back by weeks or even months (the union and the league *have* been talking about this negotiation process for more than 2 years, don't forget).

What they are hoping will happen, is that the owners will soon realize that without the players, then the long term investments with the owners paid for the teams etc. will have been for naught.
As I've said before, there's no way the league is looking at $4B in BRI without Lebron, KG, Durant, Kobe etc.

You think the league couldn't generate revenues without Lebron? Nonsense -- they'll just prop up and saturate the market with the Next Big Thing, and fans will lap it up. The game is bigger than any player. I loved Magic vs Bird, but I didn't stop watching the NBA when they retired. There will always be elite athletes to draw the attention of fans. The league can withstand the loss of ANY of these guys and still make a huge profit. That marketing power is what the owners and their money bring to the table in this "partnership" that isn't really a partnership at all, but an over-glorified employee/employer relationship.

The other thing the players need to understand is their window of opportunity. IF the season is cancelled, then my bet is the union will be de-certified, meaning they're all out of jobs and there is no such thing as the NBA. Good luck to guys like Matt Bonner and Derk Fisher finding jobs overseas. Even if they don't de-certify, the owners will be in an even stronger position -- yes, losing money, but on a much longer term and much easier to account for than the players. The average NBA career is maybe 5 years? That's going to get swallowed up quickly the longer there are no games and no money coming in. And if you're already late in your career and haven't done a particularly good job preparing for post-basketball future, it's even more dire.

The other thing that hasn't been touched on yet is, if this goes on past a season, what influence will players who AREN'T in the NBA yet, but are waiting to enter, have? You have guys retiring each year, and new blood coming in from the NCAA and Europe each year. If I'm a college senior looking to get drafted into the NBA, I'm pretty pissed right now watching these millionaires put MY future in jeopardy...