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The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

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  • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    There is a significant difference based on the amount and the expected trajectory of that amount. HUGE difference.



    The NHL also completely changed the way hockey was played. They eliminated the 'clutch and grab' approach, for a high speed - high energy approach. Guerin was no longer as effective as he was before, and younger, smaller and speedier players offered alot more value.

    So while his age may have had an effect, but so did the style of the sport. Which even with or without a hard cap, a bri change, whatever, he was likely going to be less valuable in short order anyways. There are no shortage of examples to prove this. Hell almost the entire leafs roster at the time showed this.

    Regardless this lockout isn't just about the 'old players' anyways. The 'young players' have, theoretically, alot more to lose (atleast long term) under the new CBA than the older players. Using Guerin (and hockey) as an example of why the players should just accept an agreement does not offer a complete picture. Guerin is a guy who was lost because of the rule changes regardless of the what the outcome of the CBA was.




    Contraction would effect a very small % of the player personnel. If it was 2 teams, thats 7% of all players.

    Put that up against how the new CBA will effect the salaries of 100% of the players both immediately and in the long term... maybe they see it as worth their risk? But its not at all putting a gun to their head and pulling the trigger.

    Wasn't there a discussion the other day about how a hard cap hurts the rank and file players the most (ie. superstars are stilling going to get payed a lot, but that will come at the cost of the 'middle class' players?) So, for better or worse, holding out on a hard cap may make the most fiscal sense for the rank and file.

    And contraction isn't the only solution, but it is a possible solution/alternative/ingredient. One that should be discussed more and in the end benifits an overwhelming majority on both sides.
    More money going out versus coming in is a losing proposition for the owners. The only difference is how much time one can take operational losses when they are 'small' versus 'large'.

    Before you talk about Bill Guerin's style of play and his lack of value moving forward, you should have a look at his stats. It is one thing to pass your opinions off as facts but a completely different situation when the facts don't back your opinions.

    Guerin struggled for the first year after the lockout. In 2006/07 he was back to his normal self. How many guys are going to be able to bounce back, or better yet, how many guys are going to get a chance to bounce back in their 30's after a long layoff that the players ultimately lost.

    7% of all players is around 28-35 players. Put yourself in the bottom 7% and see what tune you are singing. The top 7% are advancing their agenda at the expense of the bottoms 7% - ultimately the middle has more to lose than the top as well.

    The discussion the other day about the middle class was posted by me. The average salary is around $5M, the median salary is around $2.3M. Half the league makes $2.3M or less. Half the league should be taking Bill Guerin's advice.

    Comment


    • The players have a new spokesman

      I was waiting for when the inevitable race card would be played. Well it happened yesterday via Bryant Gumbel and HBO. Stern is the "plantation overseer"!

      Like someone else said .... what does it make Gary Bettman for cancelling a whole season of a league played by white serfs?

      http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/bal...urn=nba-wp9516

      Barkley making sense again?!......
      http://www.danpatrick.com/2011/10/20...n-david-stern/


      ps...dont know if this was the appropriate location but this is lockout related
      Last edited by Bendit; Thu Oct 20, 2011, 03:52 PM. Reason: Added another link

      Comment


      • Bendit wrote: View Post
        Like someone else said .... what does it make Gary Bettman for cancelling a whole season of a league played by white serfs?
        the golf pro at a country club?

        Comment


        • More money going out versus coming in is a losing proposition for the owners. The only difference is how much time one can take operational losses when they are 'small' versus 'large'
          And time changes alot of things, such as whether a business stays unprofitable or not (or vice versa). So again, to the point, there is a difference between the two leagues at the times of the lockouts, not only because of where they were but where they were/are going.


          Before you talk about Bill Guerin's style of play and his lack of value moving forward, you should have a look at his stats. It is one thing to pass your opinions off as facts but a completely different situation when the facts don't back your opinions
          Yes and compare those stats to Guerin previously. He put up good numbers for 1 season after compared to good (and better) numbers for oaround a decade before. How is this even a debate? The league changed... so did the players and their style. Blame it all on his age... thats still just 'opinion you are trying to pass off as fact' and age still only touches a fraction of those involved in this lockout. Whats not opinion is the entire list of drastic rule changes and more than a small amount of discussion available about it, its effect on the league, its effect on players and its effect on team building.

          7% of all players is around 28-35 players. Put yourself in the bottom 7% and see what tune you are singing. The top 7% are advancing their agenda at the expense of the bottoms 7% - ultimately the middle has more to lose than the top as well.

          The discussion the other day about the middle class was posted by me. The average salary is around $5M, the median salary is around $2.3M. Half the league makes $2.3M or less. Half the league should be taking Bill Guerin's advice.
          Do you really think that 7% think there jobs are guaranteed anyways? How quickly does that bottom 7% dissappear and reappear in the NBA? Please, since when is this battle over Sonny Weems and Patrick O'Bryant? No one cares about them... they know it, players know it, the owners would know it if they even knew who they were, you and I know it.

          There are 2 or 3 players on every team that get to be part of this discussion just because they were in the right place at the right time. That is their right, and it may be in their best interest to want to play right away... but should those few, or will those few, have much influence on those who actually play and will still be in the NBA 1-10 years from now?

          Is that what its come to.... "lets get the most irrelevant involved so I can try and prove or push my agenda?" Please. When this CBA argument is over those bottom 7% are just as likely out of a job regardless of the CBA.

          and put yourself in the 100% who are being forced to take pay cuts and are told they won't be able to recoup that money because of a statement by billionares they refuse to prove. I know for this argument people will easily believe they will take a pay cut for the good of their company or employer, but history proves otherwise. But no one ever has a problem wanting someone else to. The players are doing just what 99% of the world would do and has throughout history. Try to get every dime they can, both long and short term. They just happen to be doing it while already making alot more than most. But they are still human, acting in the way humans do, and acting the exactly way you or I would in their situation. They are doing the exact same thing the owners are, just from the other side.

          Taking the advice of a guy who was aging, while becoming obsolete in a new system, playing for an inferior league (both financially, in viewership and growth) with a group who gave in at what could have been at the worst possible time.... is not necessarily good advice. It may be the best advice they get... it may also be terrible advice.

          At the same time maybe Jerry Moyes could offer the owners some 'advice' especially on a hard cap and on how great it is for small market teams and Gary Bettman could give Stern some pointers about the importance of locating professional sports teams and sticking to your guns about it no matter what happens........
          Last edited by GarbageTime; Thu Oct 20, 2011, 04:18 PM.

          Comment


          • Bendit wrote: View Post
            I was waiting for when the inevitable race card would be played. Well it happened yesterday via Bryant Gumbel and HBO. Stern is the "plantation overseer"!

            Like someone else said .... what does it make Gary Bettman for cancelling a whole season of a league played by white serfs?

            http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/bal...urn=nba-wp9516

            Barkley making sense again?!......
            http://www.danpatrick.com/2011/10/20...n-david-stern/


            ps...dont know if this was the appropriate location but this is lockout related
            The entire race argument is ridiculous. The only colour that matters here is green.

            Comment


            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
              In 8 years I guarantee Derek Fisher will say the same things.
              I wonder if the Phoenix Coyotes owner thinks the 2004 lockout was worth... oh, wait a second....

              Oh well, at least the Atlanta Thrashers owners made out like bandits off that thing. And look at how much owners in Jersey, Florida, Tampa, Dallas, and Long Island got out of it. Thank god the owners held firm, otherwise all those teams in the US would still be in trouble.

              Comment


              • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                I wasn't the one who claimed hockey was 'thriving' while still losing money.
                The NHL's biggest expense, just like the NBA, is player salary cost. That cost happens to be one they can control. The NHL is making lots of money, they just need to get their biggest expense in check. Just like the NBA.

                GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                as for economic conditions... in the end who can say. The entire system may meltdown making the BRI a completely irrelevant debate. It may also boom beyond belief meaning the owners will make off like bandits at the player's expense.
                If you understand the American economy you know that it's only going to get worse down there. There is no rebound in the works. The system is broken down there and their leaders are essentially in the pockets of Wall Street and the banks. Wall Street and the banks are transferring the wealth of the country into their pockets and foreign interests. Things are going to get much worse down there. Let's not fool ourselves here.

                GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                (The one thing I will say is that sports do tend to have a resilence beyond most businesses, but everyone is inevitably effected by the economic conditions as a whole).
                Pro sports hasn't been tested like it is right now or like it will be moving forward. Pro sports lives off the middle class and in America the government has essentially declared war against the middle class through policy and "rules". The middle class is shrinking down there. More people are on food stamps in America right now than the entire population of Canada.

                GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                again this doesn't touch the lack of transparency which is inevitably necessary to make the argument that "yes the owners are losing X dollars and therefore need Y in return to make it work and therefore will hold out until then". Its just amazing the amount of debate thats going on based on information provided by people who:

                1) have shown an unwillingness to openly release the information that would be to their 'gain'

                2) have a vested interest in providing inaccurate information for their own gain
                I don't see Dwayne Wade or Kevin Garnett making their bank statements public to "prove" that they need the money they're willing to be locked out out to (not)get. The players aren't the Owners' partners, they're the employees. The Players have no right to see how the NBA operates its business no more than it's David Stern's business how much Kevin Garnett has for a nest egg to live off while he's holding up negotiations and causing many average NBA players to feel the pain of not having a pay check and not having the luxury of having years under the belt making $20M/yr. You can point the finger all you want and call the league a bunch of liars and crooks but where's the proof? You have none. If the players have the same unfounded distrust as you have all they're going to get for their troubles when it's all said and done is a lost season of salary and greatly reduced salary and opportunity to earn going forward. As leverage changes so too do the offers and the players' leverage has no way of increasing while playing the waiting game. Just ask the NHLPA.

                GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                I have no idea why people want to believe the owners so badly that they are willing to blindly believe what rationality tells us we shouldn't. It may be the owners are losing money and are predicting future losses. It may also be that they are losing money but projecting future gains. It may be they are making money and projecting future losses. It may be that they are making money and projecting future gains.


                This is a lockout, not a strike. Its based on the owners statement that the league is losing money because of player salaries (which we know is not entirely true as, at the very least, some salaries make them a fortune), but little to no willingness to prove that statement. Yet we sit here and put all the onus on the players.
                They don't need to open up the books. It doesn't work that way and whether the Owners are truthful or not, it would be stupid to do so. The Players are employees, they have no right to that information and they have no qualifications or credibility to pick through the operations of a $4B business and nit pick the nickles and dimes.

                Comment


                • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                  And time changes alot of things, such as whether a business stays unprofitable or not (or vice versa). So again, to the point, there is a difference between the two leagues at the times of the lockouts, not only because of where they were but where they were/are going.




                  Yes and compare those stats to Guerin previously. He put up good numbers for 1 season after compared to good (and better) numbers for oaround a decade before. How is this even a debate? The league changed... so did the players and their style. Blame it all on his age... thats still just 'opinion you are trying to pass off as fact' and age still only touches a fraction of those involved in this lockout. Whats not opinion is the entire list of drastic rule changes and more than a small amount of discussion available about it, its effect on the league, its effect on players and its effect on team building.



                  Do you really think that 7% think there jobs are guaranteed anyways? How quickly does that bottom 7% dissappear and reappear in the NBA? Please, since when is this battle over Sonny Weems and Patrick O'Bryant? No one cares about them... they know it, players know it, the owners would know it if they even knew who they were, you and I know it.

                  There are 2 or 3 players on every team that get to be part of this discussion just because they were in the right place at the right time. That is their right, and it may be in their best interest to want to play right away... but should those few, or will those few, have much influence on those who actually play and will still be in the NBA 1-10 years from now?

                  Is that what its come to.... "lets get the most irrelevant involved so I can try and prove or push my agenda?" Please. When this CBA argument is over those bottom 7% are just as likely out of a job regardless of the CBA.

                  and put yourself in the 100% who are being forced to take pay cuts and are told they won't be able to recoup that money because of a statement by billionares they refuse to prove. I know for this argument people will easily believe they will take a pay cut for the good of their company or employer, but history proves otherwise. But no one ever has a problem wanting someone else to. The players are doing just what 99% of the world would do and has throughout history. Try to get every dime they can, both long and short term. They just happen to be doing it while already making alot more than most. But they are still human, acting in the way humans do, and acting the exactly way you or I would in their situation. They are doing the exact same thing the owners are, just from the other side.

                  Taking the advice of a guy who was aging, while becoming obsolete in a new system, playing for an inferior league (both financially, in viewership and growth) with a group who gave in at what could have been at the worst possible time.... is not necessarily good advice. It may be the best advice they get... it may also be terrible advice.

                  At the same time maybe Jerry Moyes could offer the owners some 'advice' especially on a hard cap and on how great it is for small market teams and Gary Bettman could give Stern some pointers about the importance of locating professional sports teams and sticking to your guns about it no matter what happens........
                  Bill Guerin, Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley opinion versus GT. I know who I agree with.

                  Comment


                  • Apollo wrote: View Post
                    I don't see Dwayne Wade or Kevin Garnett making their bank statements public to "prove" that they need the money they're willing to be locked out out to (not)get. The players aren't the Owners' partners, they're the employees. The Players have no right to see how the NBA operates its business no more than it's David Stern's business how much Kevin Garnett has for a nest egg to live off while he's holding up negotiations and causing many average NBA players to feel the pain of not having a pay check and not having the luxury of having years under the belt making $20M/yr. You can point the finger all you want and call the league a bunch of liars and crooks but where's the proof? You have none. If the players have the same unfounded distrust as you have all they're going to get for their troubles when it's all said and done is a lost season of salary and greatly reduced salary and opportunity to earn going forward. As leverage changes so too do the offers and the players' leverage has no way of increasing while playing the waiting game. Just ask the NHLPA.



                    They don't need to open up the books. It doesn't work that way and whether the Owners are truthful or not, it would be stupid to do so. The Players are employees, they have no right to that information and they have no qualifications or credibility to pick through the operations of a $4B business and nit pick the nickles and dimes.
                    First off we know exactly how much each of those players make. Their books are open. I'm not asking the owners to open up all their financial statements. What I'm saying is if the owners want us to believe, and in order for fans to believe them, all that information they are claiming should be available.

                    Where's my proof? Proof of what? I never called them crooks or thiefs. But I also don't blindly follow someone who has incentive to not tell the truth. Nor should any of us. Which is perhaps the most ridiculous part of whats going on here. Like I said they may very well be losing money, and they very well may not. But there is a lack of transparency as to whats going on... so how can anyone argue the league needs pay cuts when we don't actually know?

                    Have you heard of accountants? Its not like I expect the players to 'check the books' themselves. Seriously.........

                    Comment


                    • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      Bill Guerin, Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley opinion versus GT. I know who I agree with.

                      feel free. It hardly makes Bill Guerin's opinion or using the NHL lockout example any more accurate or mine any less credible.

                      Comment


                      • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                        feel free. It hardly makes Bill Guerin's opinion or using the NHL lockout example any more accurate or mine any less credible.
                        Instead of looking for reasons why the NHL is not the same as the NBA and vice versa, it might help to listen to his message which does apply to the NBA, the NHL, other professional sport leagues, government, private businesses and any other union of workers:

                        "I learned a big lesson: It's not a partnership. It's their league, and you are going to play when they want," he said.
                        When you are in the heat of battle, and you are fired up, you don't think what they are doing is right. But it's not about what is right or wrong -- it's their league. It's theirs. I feel, personally, I didn't like guys giving up a year of their career, for what? A few less bucks? Guys are making more money now than they ever have."
                        The truth is Guerin, or any player, really isn't in charge as long as those who are cutting the checks are unified.
                        Much of what is taking place right now between the players and owners sounds and feels very similar to the early days of the NHL lockout in 2004. Stern has total autonomy. No owner is talking, which means Stern has solidarity and leverage.
                        "The only thing you can die in the battlefield for in something like this is guaranteed contracts; everything else is nickel-and-dime stuff and it's not worth it," Guerin said.
                        "For so long, I thought so long and hard about it," he said. "But when you think about it, I tell guys it wasn't worth it."
                        The players have already won a major concession from the league, the NBA has backed off the guaranteed contract issue. The players should take the 50/50 and get back to work because, as Barkley stated, they aren't playing for more than 50%. Who is one of Charles best friends? A certain owner who was also one of the greatest players ever.

                        Comment


                        • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                          First off we know exactly how much each of those players make. Their books are open. I'm not asking the owners to open up all their financial statements. What I'm saying is if the owners want us to believe, and in order for fans to believe them, all that information they are claiming should be available.
                          First off we know exactly how much the Owners made. The Players took 57% of it last season.

                          GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                          Where's my proof? Proof of what? I never called them crooks or thiefs. But I also don't blindly follow someone who has incentive to not tell the truth.
                          Where does that get you? To a nice conspiracy theory?

                          GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                          Have you heard of accountants? Its not like I expect the players to 'check the books' themselves. Seriously.........
                          Yes. I am one. I state again, it's none of the player's business how the league operates. The players are not partners, they're employees in a system. Again, I'd love to see Mr. "martyr" himself, Kevin Garnett, blaze a trail and take another for the team out of the goodness of his heart and prove why he's needs 53% of the BRI. He simply needs to print off his bank statements and show Mr.Stern where he's spending his money. By your logic the owners need to know this information to make sure they make a good deal and aren't being deceived. Stern needs to know what kind of hot tub Garnett owns and how much it drives up his utility bill among other things.

                          Comment


                          • MLE nearing comprimise

                            The two sides are nearing a compromise on the annual midlevel exception starting at $5 million with annual raises over three years, sources told Y! Sports. Two weeks ago, the NBA was proposing a $3 million starting salary for the midlevel.
                            Source: Yahoo Sports

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                            • Owners proposing incentives to high-achieving young players

                              The owners also are proposing a “bonus pool” of money for high-achieving young players with performance-based incentives. Under the proposal, players would be rewarded for winning Rookie of the Year and making All-Star teams and other accomplishments. The union wants young stars such as the Chicago Bulls’ Derrick Rose(notes) and Los Angeles Clippers’ Blake Griffin(notes), who have out-earned their rookie-scale contracts, to have quicker access to more lucrative extensions. Currently, a rookie contract can be renegotiated between the third and fourth seasons, and goes into affect after the fourth and final year of the initial deal.
                              Source: Yahoo Sports

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                              • Owners making more progress on revenue sharing

                                Thursday’s mediation began shortly after the end of the owners’ board of governors meeting in which the owners had a “robust” discussion on revenue sharing, Silver said. Silver didn’t reveal specifics on the proposal saying the structure of the new revenue-sharing system remains contingent on the completion of a new collective bargaining agreement with the players.
                                Source: Yahoo Sports

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