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The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

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  • Wait so let me get this straight. If they don't sign this deal then the owners are going to offer them a worse deal? O_o

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    • The average NBA salary[$5,150,000.] is by far the highest of the four major leagues. It is more than double the average NFL salary[1,900,000.] or NHL [$2.400,000].
      The highest salaried superstar NHL player makes what Jose Calderone makes.[Almost $10,000,000 annually].
      Since the NBA isn't the most profitable or the most popular sports league I have a hard time justifying the players' demands. The offer by the owners is still a great deal as far as minimum salary goes and the top stars will be paid 2-3 hundred million for their careers.
      There really isn't an issue that is worth shutting down play. At the end of the road every player makes huge coin and what the owners are offering doesn't change that.
      It is the fans that ultimately pay the salaries but I get the feeling we are not being considered.

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      • j bean wrote: View Post
        The average NBA salary[$5,150,000.] is by far the highest of the four major leagues. It is more than double the average NFL salary[1,900,000.] or NHL [$2.400,000].
        The highest salaried superstar NHL player makes what Jose Calderone makes.[Almost $10,000,000 annually].
        Since the NBA isn't the most profitable or the most popular sports league I have a hard time justifying the players' demands. The offer by the owners is still a great deal as far as minimum salary goes and the top stars will be paid 2-3 hundred million for their careers.
        There really isn't an issue that is worth shutting down play. At the end of the road every player makes huge coin and what the owners are offering doesn't change that.
        It is the fans that ultimately pay the salaries but I get the feeling we are not being considered.

        There are far fewer players in the NBA than the NFL, you can't compare the two. I don't really watch the NHL so I can comment on the team size but they have a completely different system (a hard cap) which prevents the salaries from getting very high.

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        • I think the players should accept the offer. Getting a 50/50 split on revenue is still good. The owners still have expenses to pay from their share. The players just take it and go. However, I don't think you'll see them do so. The agents seem to be involved in the process now. With that, don't be surprised to see a quick move toward decertification. This will be aimed at forcing the owners to come up with a better deal. The owners won't go for that. So, I expect this season to be lost unless the star players push for a deal. They'll probably get a deal done next summer. I hope that won't affect the 2012 NBA draft. With a lost season, the Raptors should get another top 5 pick. If the 2012 draft is as talented as they say it is, the Raps might just be able to snag their next franchise player.

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          • man these guys piss me off, just fricken accept the deal so I can watch some ball
            ya dun noe

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            • RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
              There are far fewer players in the NBA than the NFL, you can't compare the two. I don't really watch the NHL so I can comment on the team size but they have a completely different system (a hard cap) which prevents the salaries from getting very high.
              NHL system does not work. "Star" players sign contracts that are ridiculously long -- there are people signed into their late 40's. Quality players are hidden in the minors to stay under the cap. Quality teams can't keep their players so teams like the Sens go from being Finalists to the joke of the league... I could go on.

              I feel the owners are not negotiating in good faith. Unions were brought into sports because owners have historically hidden profits, players were not allowed to become free agents, etc. The freedom of player movement is held as a cornerstone of the NBPA, yet this last offer basically asks the players to give that away. That's way bigger than players' split. I'm sure (if the players are negotiating in good faith -- who knows, it's not like they've been given a legit offer yet) that the 50/50 split of basketball related income would not be a central issue.

              Also, let's be clear, it's basketball related income -- not revenue, or gross, or net of the teams. What constitutes what that consists of, I assume, is negotiated between the 2 parties.

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              • j bean said it for me. The players make far more than anyone in the other major leagues. They are not hard done by. Sure they all work hard and are gifted athletes and they are who people pay to see and blah blah blah. They are men playing a game for an average of $5,000,000 a year. The stars will make $100 - $200 million in their careers. And they want more? The freedom to move to a large market so they can get extra endorsement deals? Or win championships when they think they deserve them? Get over yourselves.

                None of them have had to work for a boss they didn't like I guess. Or live in a place they didn't want to. Actually they don't have to do any of those things. They can always accept a worse contract to go to a nicer place, play for a better team. Be with their buddies. But I guess playing for the team you want, with your friends and with a good boos and only making $80 million in your career isn't enough.

                Get over it.

                Puffer

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                • RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
                  Wait so let me get this straight. If they don't sign this deal then the owners are going to offer them a worse deal? O_o
                  The idea here is that the players are costing the Owners money by not accepting and more importantly, the player don't have any real leverage right now. I think this is the NBA's attempt at scaring the union into accepting before de-certification could possibly happen.

                  I think the players will be kicking themselves later for not already agreeing.

                  blackjitsu wrote: View Post
                  NHL system does not work. "Star" players sign contracts that are ridiculously long -- there are people signed into their late 40's. Quality players are hidden in the minors to stay under the cap. Quality teams can't keep their players so teams like the Sens go from being Finalists to the joke of the league... I could go on.
                  The NHL CBA works far better than the one prior. It rewards good management and punishes bad management. It accomplishes this while leaving everyone on an even playing field. That's what the NBA wants. The main difference here though is the NBA doesn't sound willing to allow deals longer than four years so this good point about NHL contract length does not apply to the NBA. Quality teams keep adding good players via the draft. Look at the Patriots in the NFL. They've been elite for a decade in a hard cap system. For the most part so have the Ravens and Steelers. In the NHL you can look to the Red Wings as a good example. Furthermore, you're assuming that the Sens could have afforded to keep Chara, Redden, etc. in a soft cap or no cap situation. I would argue that their price tags would be even higher in such a system. You would have rich teams like the Red Wings and Leafs tossing money all over the place and jacking up prices in the process.

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                  • At the end of the day, it's all about ego. The specifics of the numbers are far less important than the perception that you "caved". The players are trying to avoid feeling like chumps.

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                    • i'm willing to bet there are more players who want their next pay cheque than there are players willing to play this "My wang is bigger than your wang" game with the owners

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                      • heinz57 wrote: View Post
                        i'm willing to bet there are more players who want their next pay cheque than there are players willing to play this "My wang is bigger than your wang" game with the owners
                        I would tend to agree. The union has enough reserve funds to write players cheques through November. At that point a lot of them won't have income. This is the point where the standoff really starts to get interesting. At that point the Owners' offer might be 40-45% BRI and a hard cap, you never know. If the players don't agree by Wednesday I'm hoping for the Owners' to dominate because I really want to see that hard cap.

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                        • Union to meet Monday

                          Exec. Committee will talk Monday about next step, take membership pulse, but there's no way they'll try to sell this offer to rank-and-rile.
                          Source: Twitter @WojYahooNBA

                          But NBPA sources reiterated Sunday that the executive board remains unwilling to present that offer to the union's estimated 450 members for a vote and plans to make that stance clear to team player reps at the meeting.

                          Sources told ESPN.com that union leaders have not budged from the view that the NBA's offer is "unacceptable," just as NBPA president Derek Fisher described it in the wee hours of Sunday morning once Saturday's marathon bargaining session finally ended.
                          Source: ESPN.com

                          They won't bring it to a vote why? I think because they know the majority of players will vote for it.

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                          • 15 minutes

                            Federal Mediator George Cohen shuttled back & forth between the two rooms before bringing them together at the end for owners proposal
                            Interesting: sources from each side told me players&owners only spent "about 15 minutes" together during Saturday's 8 1/2 hour meeting
                            Source: Twitter @Chris_Broussard

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                            • Union Coup d'état Moving Fast?

                              On Monday, meanwhile, sources say that the players and agents backing the decertification of the union have scheduled another conference call to follow the two conference calls -- each with at least 50 players dialed in -- that took place last week.

                              One source close to the process said Sunday that the leaders of the decertification movement, with Boston Celtics star Paul Pierce most notably among them, ambitiously hope they can ultimately secure as many as 200 signatures on a petition that would be filed with the National Labor Relations Board to call for a formal decertification vote. An actual vote would not take place for up to 45 days after the petition is filed, while the NLRB verifies the request, but only 30 percent of the league's active work force -- an estimated 130 players -- is needed to satisfy petition requirements.

                              "We intend to move fast," said another source involved in the decertification movement.
                              Hard-line players, of course, are the ones like Pierce and New Jersey's Deron Williams who are openly pushing for decertification.

                              "I've been ready to sign a decertification petition since July?" Williams tweeted Sunday from Turkey, where he is playing for Istanbul-based Besiktas. "Can't believe we are just now going this route! ***."

                              If signatures are indeed collected from 30 percent of the players this week as expected, their petition for a decertification vote would be filed with the NLRB, which could then take an estimated 45 days to verify the petition and schedule an actual decertification vote. Disbanding the union requires a simple majority of players voting for decertification, but the union would continue to exist while the NLRB is arranging the vote and thus could theoretically continue negotiations with the league before the Players Association is dissolved.

                              Decertification backers believe that the fear of the unknown once the union is decertified, with the labor fight then moving into courtrooms, would finally move NBA owners off the extreme hard-line negotiating stance they've maintained throughout the four-month lockout and lead to a more palatable offer during that 45-day window.

                              Sources on the ownership side, however, believe that the pre-emptive federal lawsuit filed by the NBA during the summer could potentially take the sting out of any potential decertification, although that remains a matter of some debate among legal analysts.

                              There is even stronger conviction on the ownership side in questioning whether a majority of players would indeed have the stomach to go through with full-on decertification, since that step would almost certainly seal the cancellation of the entire 2011-12 season and throws up as many unsettling unknowns about the status of existing contracts for the players as it would for the owners. But the success of a decertification vote likely depends on its timing, since most experts agree that a vote would surely pass if the NBA cancels the season first.
                              Source: ESPN.com

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                              • Union hoping for one last shot before Wednesday

                                Sources close to the talks revealed later Sunday that the union is actually holding out hope that the league will call to re-open negotiations before Wednesday, with an eye toward tweaking some of the system issues to lead to a more palatable deal that the NBPA would be comfortable with putting to a vote. The union's belief, sources say, is that a few changes -- none of them monumental -- could produce a deal now that the gap on the revenue was closed further in Saturday's negotiations.
                                One ownership source told ESPN.com on Sunday that the union shouldn't expect an improved offer from the league before Wednesday largely because of that gulf between various owners. The source also made the claim that even the league's so-called "doves" are losing patience with the slow pace of negotiations to the point that they, too, are bound to start squeezing.

                                The source said: "Even the [ownership] doves are beginning to feel like, 'If we lose all these games and do all this damage, we might as well go for a better deal.' "
                                Source: ESPN.com

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