The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

[Joey]

It's too bad it come down to dividing the fans between sides as well.

[Apollo]

I'm with you Matt. This whole thing is draining. I want total domination now. The Owners/Players relationship is pretty much destroyed at this point so a total domination isn't going to do any more damage. I don't give a crap about what the Players feel they deserve because the Players goals are counter to what's best for the overall product.

It's too bad it come down to dividing the fans between sides as well.

We don't need to choose sides. Some people feel compelled to cheer for those who they normally cheer for on the court this time of year. Others feel compelled to support those who are proposing a long list of items that could greatly enhance the experience of fans who aren't lucky enough to have an owner with deep pockets running their favorite team. I think it was destined to be this way.

[Joey]

Geez, "Crushing Blow". "Total Domination".

Sounds like 'Mortal Kombat'!

I think, you may find this draining because you guys have emotionally involved yourselfs so heavily in something you actually have no effect over. I would certainly find it draining as well!

I just want something that is fair, and both sides agree it is fair.
I don't want anyone to be 'dominated'.

[Hugmenot]

So the owners are free to negotiate with the players right now?

Could the owners not dissolve the NBA, enter into a new agreement that starts a new league that has a hard cap like other sports leagues have, with the cap set at $30 million per team? Wouldn't that hurt the players? I must admit I am getting confused by the legal shinanigans.

What am I missing?

All commercial contracts between the NBA and other parties would be dissolved, and that's assuming creditors and other entities having commercial contracts with the NBA would let them dissolve without a legal fight.

The NBA is much more than team owners and players; it's a global product whose brand is much more popular, valuable, and lasting than any one single player.

[Apollo]

Geez, "Crushing Blow". "Total Domination".

Sounds like 'Mortal Kombat'!

I think, you may find this draining because you guys have emotionally involved yourselfs so heavily in something you actually have no effect over. I would certainly find it draining as well!

I just want something that is fair, and both sides agree it is fair.
I don't want anyone to be 'dominated'.

I'm not literally drained. It's just a saying. I have NFL football and a 9-0 team to cheer for. I'm good. Correction, I'm great. The Packers totally annihilated the Vikings last night.

I don't care about "fair". What is "fair" anyway? It's all interpretation. I want a hard cap and I want mechanisms in place to highly limit player movement(ie: franchise tag).

[Joey]

I have NFL football and a 9-0 team to cheer for. I'm good. Correction, I'm great. The Packers totally annihilated the Vikings last night.

Man, was Rodgers supposed to be THIS good?!
Or their defense for that matter!

I don't care about "fair". What is "fair" anyway? It's all interpretation. I want a hard cap and I want mechanisms in place to highly limit player movement(ie: franchise tag).

Indeed. But I guess thats why I qualified it with "Both sides agree its fair".
Which is obviously fantastical thinking, but regardless. Thats what I want.
I'm of the belief that if your employees feel they are being slighted everyday they go to work, you won't be getting the best product out of them. Whether or not they are justified in feeling slighted, thats a whole other debate.

[mcHAPPY]

Man, was Rodgers supposed to be THIS good?!
Or their defense for that matter!



Indeed. But I guess thats why I qualified it with "Both sides agree its fair".
Which is obviously fantastical thinking, but regardless. Thats what I want.
I'm of the belief that if your employees feel they are being slighted everyday they go to work, you won't be getting the best product out of them. Whether or not they are justified in feeling slighted, thats a whole other debate.

You take away guaranteed contracts and I guarantee you will get the best out of them - and more than what they currently, OVERALL, put in.

OVERALL meaning some players, like Kobe, are self motivated and are already going at max and that statement would not apply to them individually but as a group I feel it does.

[Apollo]

Indeed. But I guess thats why I qualified it with "Both sides agree its fair".
Which is obviously fantastical thinking, but regardless. Thats what I want.
I'm of the belief that if your employees feel they are being slighted everyday they go to work, you won't be getting the best product out of them. Whether or not they are justified in feeling slighted, thats a whole other debate.

The Owners seem far more concerned about getting a profitable system for the whole fleet than not hurting feelings. All this will be forgotten about come the next post season.

Also you need to consider the idea that there was a significant group of people who liked the deal. I mean why else would the Union be so fearful of putting the offer to a vote? They're out to protect the interests of the loudest voices. The stars. Piece and Garnett have been posting consistent double doubles for month now. Ten crossed arm poses and ten pouts per meeting.

[heinz57]

They're millionaires because they play a game professionally.

FAIR would be a professional game player not getting paid more than doctors, nurses, firemen, cops...

Hell, I do volunteer work and regularly meet people who have dedicated their lives to philanthropy, but only gross like 25-30k a year, and they're totallycool with that.. FAIR is them making millions on the grounds of being totally awesome human beings..

FAIR is somebody who chooses to PLAY A FUCKING GAME making minimum wage

[Joey]

They're out to protect the interests of the loudest voices. The stars.

I'd be curious to see what Percentage of that $4B was earned by the 'Rank and File' players.
Its backwards, but the %5 make more money for the owners than the remaining 95%.

They're millionaires because they play a game professionally.

FAIR would be a professional game player not getting paid more than doctors, nurses, firemen, cops...

Hell, I do volunteer work and regularly meet people who have dedicated their lives to philanthropy, but only gross like 25-30k a year, and they're totallycool with that.. FAIR is them making millions on the grounds of being totally awesome human beings..

FAIR is somebody who chooses to PLAY A FUCKING GAME making minimum wage

But when that game brings in BILLIONS, those that sell the tickets should be Proportionately conpensated for what is earned.

I agree its crazy they make more than Doctors, Cops etc. but when we spend that money to watch a game, someones going to have to get that money.

And I can't imagine the Owners (read: Slimy Businessmen) are 'better human beings' than the players.

[Apollo]

Most fans don't care about proportions. All they see is the Owners offering billions and the players turning it down and stating that the Owners aren't negotiating in good faith. I'm sure most fans who do care about proportions would be completely mind boggled about how 50% or 47% is bad. The only risk the players incur(injuries) is softened tremendously by insurance.

Anyway, now that the Union is being disbanded I guess this opens the door to long term scabs if need be.

[Bendit]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/72...ly-hunter-says

The Interesting parts are:


[...]


Please note: "billion dollars in triple damages"




Get the rub here? There is no union, thus the Season can continue right now, with each team able to bargain individually with each player as they choose.

There is no longer any legal basis for a lockout, since there is no union to lock out. Thus the NBA must start playing. If they do not do so, then they prove themselves guilty of being a coercive monopoly and justify anti-trust action.

The NBA has no antitrust exemption like that granted the NFL by Public Law 89-800. Which may have been what caused Kessler to lose to Boies in the NFL case, and why Boies has a different position now.

Kessler and Boies (who represented the NFL against Kessler in the NFL Antitrust), smell blood. Billion dollar tripple damages kinda blood.

Are Stern's days numbered?

As I understand it, the NFL anti trust exemption pertains to the TV deal only not labour. MLB is the only league with the labour exemption.

Link

[jimmie]

Thought this take by Ian Thomsen is pretty spot-on, bolded part in particular:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz1dn7iss00

Recently an essay by Etan Thomas posted on ESPN.com chose to compare the plights of the players union with the stand taken by the so-called 99 percent who have formed the "Occupy" movement on Wall Street and other locations around the world. I have enormous respect for Thomas, a sensitive poet who is serving his union's executive board for no pay because he believes in the principle. This is why I could not believe how out of touch he was to view the mission of his union as having anything at all in common with the movement to Occupy Wall Street. How in the imagination of any reasonable person could a player in the highest-paid league in the history of mankind begin to compare the terms of this $4 billion negotiation against the people who are unable to feed their families, who have lost their homes to foreclosure and who believe they have been neglected by employers and government?

If someone as smart and sensitive as Etan Thomas cannot recognize the great fortune that has placed him among the elite 1 percent, and how very little the rest of the world will sympathize with his cause, then what hope is there for any common sense to prevail amid this senselessness? He and the players talk about principle, but what will they be saying about the high price of that principle 20 years from now?

Here is the fundamental problem, and I believe 99 percent of you will agree with me: The owners and players share too much in common. People on each side of the table believe absolutely that they are in the right, that they won't be dictated to, and that they would rather see no season in 2011-12 than to surrender to their partners-turned-enemies.

The result is that they are all doomed to regret their role in what has happened. Because someday they're going to think about why they got into this business. The owners bought into the league because they love sports, and the players have always played because they love to play. That love is what brought them together, and now look at the harm they're doing to the thing they love most.

[Joey]

"The Owners bought into the league because they love Sports.."? Hahah I think that might be a bit naive.

[Apollo]

I actually think a lot of the owners probably regret their role in the last CBA negotiations. A CBA which led to them losing a lot of money. A CBA which further shifted the power out of the hands of those who are taking all the financial risk. This time around it seems like half of them want to solve their problems at all cost. I don't think they'll regret not signing on to more numbers in the red later. Also, regardless of their reasons for being in the league, they're all businessmen. No one wants to be invested in a losing product.

"The Owners bought into the league because they love Sports.."? Hahah I think that might be a bit naive.

Really though. He makes it sound like it's an episode of Grays Anatomy(barf).