The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

[ezz_bee]

Even David Stern has stated previously that he wonders if the reality is that there maybe no NBA to come back to if the lockout drags on into multiple seasons.

If it does get dragged out I do feel that the NBA could go under, but I left that out since I felt like my post was emotional enough without adding a "The sky is falling!"~ish statement. I also feel that if the players win in court then that basically means that the NBA must operate as if it were a free market. I do think that their are players who like this idea (Dwayne Wade is on record I think) but I basically think that a free market NBA would lead to at least a few franchises folding and effectively end of the NBA as we no it. But that could just be me worrying.

I don't think the players chances are as weak as the NBA would have everyone believe.
There's no way Boies would have taken the case if he didn't think they had a slight chance at winning.

Disagree here, I have nothing against lawyers, but they represent people all the time where they feel like their odds of winning are slim-none. In most cases they get paid whether their clients win or lose.

Really though. He makes it sound like it's an episode of Grays Anatomy(barf).

Gray's Anatomy=double barf!

But so much has been made about how the last CBA would have been fine, had the Economy not turned the way it did.

Clearly they felt the last CBA was fair enough for them to sign it without any Negotiating.

Fair enough, but the reality is that the economy is bad so why don't the players take the deal, and ask for more the next time around when the economy will probably be better?

both sides have way too much to lose by litigating this for 2 years. The more interesting question at this point is whether the deal ultimately reached is better for the players than the one they have on the table.

agree 100%

For the record, I can't imagine a scenario where the players win. Even if they were to win treble damages to the tune of 6 billion most of them still will have lost money they can't make back, plus it may create an open market in the NBA which is unstable, franchises fold and median and mean NBA salaries decrease. Does anyone see the players getting a better deal than the 50/50 stern offered last week?

[Bendit]

But it could also be argued that it wasn't the CBA at all responsible for the losses, but simply the bad decisions made by the Managers and Owners time and time again.

Joey, I believe all such arguments became moot as of yesterday. Pity. It kind of kept the discussion going (though somtimes tedious) the past few months. From now on its going to be legal arguments. Better get those lawbooks out and brush up on your nolo contendres'

[Joey]

Nolo Contendere**. No?

And I suppose you are correct, but if the other side is still being argued, then I will raise points in defense of the other.
That is my role in all of this.

[Joey]

Disagree here, I have nothing against lawyers, but they represent people all the time where they feel like their odds of winning are slim-none. In most cases they get paid whether their clients win or lose.

Defense Lawyers, yes. They will take anything.
Litigation Lawyers? Hardly.
Especially one with a VERY solid reputation to uphold.

Fair enough, but the reality is that the economy is bad so why don't the players take the deal, and ask for more the next time around when the economy will probably be better?

Becasuse the owners are pushing for a 10 year turn around (I think). And I don't see it taking 10 years, for the Economy to stablilize. Most of these guys won't even be in the league anymore.
But the future players for whom 'they are fighting', will be taking the brunt of the Bad Deal.

[Tim W.]

But it could also be argued that it wasn't the CBA at all responsible for the losses, but simply the bad decisions made by the Managers and Owners time and time again.

You're not wrong, but it was the system that created an atmosphere where managers and owners felt forced into making decisions that could easily backfire and often did. With teams having to compete with each other for a small pool of players that actually might make a difference, the pressure is enormous to spend money on those players. And the ability for players to simply leave when their contract is up increases the pressure to win and spend immediately. Look at Cleveland? Obviously there was bad management, but the franchise was desperate to do what it could to try and keep LeBron. There's already pressure by many Raptor fans to go out and spend money to try and keep the players they have.

[ezz_bee]

Defense Lawyers, yes. They will take anything.
Litigation Lawyers? Hardly.
Especially one with a VERY solid reputation to uphold.

I have to respectfully disagree. My father is currently having some legal issues regarding a vacation property. He has hired one of, if not the most respected real estate law firm in Ontario to handle his dispute. He has paid over 10k in retainer fees already. The entire time he has been advised by this firm, that although he may have a case, his current situation is so murky that his lawyers refuse to comment specifically what they think the odds are that he'll win (and if he does win, what kind of damages he could be rewarded with) however, they are MORE than happy to represent him so long as he can continue to afford their 2k+ retainer per month. When it comes to litigation there are very few "sure things"

I could concede that this guy may not take the case if he thinks it's a guaranteed loss, but there are very few cases that are cut and dry. There's is nothing wrong with a lawyer laying out possible scenario's and representing a client even though they think that litigation isn't the best way to go. In this case, he has the opportunity to represent an organization with A LOT of money, litigation could last MULTIPLE YEARS, and is such a high profile case that as long as he does the best job he can, he will get the benefit of a TON OF MEDIA EXPOSURE. Whether the NBAPA or NBA wins any legal dispute lawyers on both sides get theirs. That's just the way it is.

Hopefully, the players' lawyers are giving them realistic expectations of what they are likely to face if they go the route of litigation. If the lawyers tell them that it's a crap shoot, (which it seems to be), or that litigation is likely to go against them, and the players still want to go to court, the lawyers aren't doing anything unethical by representing them to the best of their abilities. I really just hope that what ever legal counsel they have is giving them realistic advise.

Becasuse the owners are pushing for a 10 year turn around (I think). And I don't see it taking 10 years, for the Economy to stablilize. Most of these guys won't even be in the league anymore.
But the future players for whom 'they are fighting', will be taking the brunt of the Bad Deal.

Yes, the owners are pushing for a 10 year deal; however, they have entertained the idea of having opt out clauses after 6 years. Even conservative estimates would have the players making healthy raises again by year 6. The future players, will get their chance to negotiate their own deal when this one expires. The money the players think they are saving for the future guys, is going to be less, than what they are giving up right now, that no one is going to get back. Although it is a noble idea that the players think they are fighting for future generations of NBA players, they are really only fighting for the current CBA, them "winning" or "losing" this CBA negotiations, doesn't have a whole lot of baring on whether they "win" or "lose" the next one.

[mcHAPPY]

Via HoopsHype.com:

Adrian Wojnarowski: The NBA informed teams late this afternoon that games through December 15th have been cancelled, a front office executive says. Twitter

So for the players, it is officially 6 years of just to break even from 6 weeks of a cancelled season?

[mcHAPPY]

Anti-trust suit to be filed in Oakland tonight

Read from bottom up, via Twitter.com:

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Boies says California chosen because Hunter "has a great fondness for Oakland."
39 seconds ago

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Boies: It is in everybody's interests to resolve this quickly. The longer it goes on, the greater the damages for teams and players.
2 minutes ago

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Boies: We've brought this case in order to try to restore "competitive free-market conditions. Nobody can tell you how long it will take."
3 minutes ago

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Boies: Stern ended negotiations. It is "absolutely clear, if there was ever any doubt, that the collective bargaining process has ended."
3 minutes ago

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Boies says there is "no doubt" that this boycott is a violation of antitrust laws. Only question is whether NBA has labor exemption.
4 minutes ago

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Dvid Boies says he case is based on a boycott of NBA teams, a per se violation of antitrust laws.
5 minutes ago
»

KBergCBS Ken Berger
Billy Hunter says antitrust complaint will be filed tonight in N. District of California vs. NBA.

As a fan of the Raptors and NBA, I cannot tell you how much I dislike the bold section.

[Joey]

I'm not sure he meant it as is written. I hope not anyway.
The players have never been fighting for a free-market.
Just something closer to, than what the owners are pushing for.

DISCLAIMER: Not Arguing in favour of Free Market.
Baseball manages to avoid the whole 'Yankees and Redsox Win Every year' fairly well, I'd say.
Blue Jays manage to stay competitive, and in a couple years, will have a stable of young talent to let loose on the League.
I'm not pushing for an open market, but its not as horrible as its made out to be. Winning trumps EVERYTHING.
If you put together a winning program, you'll draw all the free agents in the world.
Look at the 1993 Blue Jays. Had a HUGE payroll, but basically had ALL the good players of the day. haha

[ezz_bee]

As a fan of the Raptors and NBA, I cannot tell you how much I dislike the bold section.

Me too

[ezz_bee]

I'm not sure he meant it as is written. I hope not anyway.
The players have never been fighting for a free-market.
Just something closer to, than what the owners are pushing for.

The problem is, imo, there actually are some players (like Wade, Lebron, Garnett, and Pierce) who are looking for complete freedom in the market... I don't believe that the majority want a free market, but I do believe there is a vocal faction of players that would be more than happy to have that free market. Although it may not be the end of the world, I do think that a free market would mean contraction.

[Tim W.]

But it could also be argued that it wasn't the CBA at all responsible for the losses, but simply the bad decisions made by the Managers and Owners time and time again.

Either way, something needs to be done. And changing the CBA is the best way to fix it. If it was just one or two teams, then you'd have a point. But this is like the banks in the US. You need to set up rules to prevent something you know will eventually happen.

[Bendit]

That bolded statement is laughable....coming from the source.

Boies was perfectly willing to argue the case for the NFL which has a hard cap. How free market is that? Is there any pro sports league which operates in a real free market? Does a draft occur in a free market? Maybe he is working too hard.

[Tim W.]

Read from bottom up, via Twitter.com:




As a fan of the Raptors and NBA, I cannot tell you how much I dislike the bold section.

So if there are going to be free market conditions, does that mean they are going to scrap the veteran minimum? I'm sure teams would be able to get players for less if it was an open market. I wonder how the rank and file players would feel about that?

[slaw]

Either way, something needs to be done. And changing the CBA is the best way to fix it. If it was just one or two teams, then you'd have a point. But this is like the banks in the US. You need to set up rules to prevent something you know will eventually happen.

That's what they said before the last CBA. And the one before. That's what they said when Oscar Robertson challenged the reserve clause in the 1970s - "Something must be done to stop Oscar or the NBA will cease to exist!". Come on, we all know as soon as this is over owners are going to be tripping over themselves to offer Kris Humphries a 5 year deal worth $45mm, along with a laundry list of other horrible contracts. How do we know this? Cause it happens every single time.... Anyone who believes that this time it will be different and this new system will create balance and harmony is either incredibuly naive, completely ignorant of history or both.