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The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

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  • this is from something Matt52 posted a couple weeks back

    Now, the colors tell an important story. Strictly looking at the draft value and win percentage, you’ll notice lost of greens clustered together and reds clustered together. This hints that the two go pretty much hand in hand. If you draft efficiently, chances are you’ll be in good hands.

    But look at the third column of data which tells us how much money they’ve spent over that time. It’s subtle, but the pigments aren’t as closely connected.

    What we’re seeing is a strong tie between drafting efficiency and win percentage, but not so much for winning and payroll. In fact, draft efficiency alone explains 34 percent of the variability in a team’s record over the past decade. How much does payroll explain?

    Just 7 percent -- a tiny amount in comparison.
    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...e-balance-myth

    so exactly how, over time, is a big markets ability to spend the deciding factor in success?

    rather it was that big market drafting Kobe Byrant or Dirk Nowitski. Or it was that Small Market drafting Tim Duncan or Lebron. Or that highly attractive market drafting Dwayne Wade. If only everyone could have one of those guys....


    Now are big markets more attractive than small markets? Sure they are. I said that a long time ago. But because of spending? Well Cleveland spent and Lebron left, Orlando spent and Dwight still appears to be leaving, Denver spent and Carmelo left.... so saying its spending doesn't fit. Then it has to be something else big market teams offer... attention, endorsement deals, lifestyle, activity etc. Thats not because of spending.

    But you did say something that caught my interest:

    Because most of the big markets right now have good managers in place
    Unfortunately on the list in the link alot of the worst drafters are also some of the smallest and least attractive markets. Milwaukee, Toronto, Minnesota, Charlotte, Utah, Indy. They are the teams everyone talks about when mention teams who can't 'compete' with the LAs or the NYs. Teams that need the draft the most are also some of the teams that draft the worst.

    Maybe what the 'big market' teams need is a cap on their executive and management spending.... not on the player payroll. Lets get some of the scouting talent, that executive savy and experience spread around.

    Name me one team, just one team, who has been a perennial playoff team who is not consistently spending above cap. You can't do it.
    I already addressed this. How many perrennial playoff teams don't have a superstar? How many teams with superstars are incapable of spending? Yet how many bad teams spend? How many bad teams have superstars?

    Like I said... its superstars that make a team good... that leads to revenue... that leads to an ability to spend. NY and LA may not need a star to create revenue, but they still need a superstar to be successful.

    If those teams shared more of that revenue with the small markets... those small markets would have more to spend to. Like I said before... the goal should not be to bring everyone down to the weak and incompetent. It should be to help improve the weak and the incompetent.

    To your next question. If ALL other things are equal then the manager who has more money to spend will ofcourse have an edge. But the reality of the NBA is not all managers, players, locations and opportunities are equal. And thats why $ alone account for such a small % of success.

    Comment


    • No one has said it's impossible for small market teams to compete. But there should be restrictions in place that prevent a) teams from buying a Championship and b) elite players from simply banding together in the biggest market. Both appear to be how the NBA is moving, and I, for one, don't like it. Plus, when the majority of the teams are actually losing money, it's hard to blame it all on bad management.

      Like I've been saying. I'd just like to see the playing field levelled a little.
      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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      Comment


      • slaw wrote: View Post
        Hey, maybe Apollo and Matt are right and the owners should just get whatever they want and the union should just agree. Owners want 99% of BRI. Players should just agree. Well, in that case, the owners don't need the union, right? No one needs a union, right? Let's just let players sign their own deals. Oh wait, that would be bad Apollo and Matt would say. So, we need a union? Don't we? Ah, there's the rub. The idyllic world of competitive balance requires a cooperative union agreeing to control the labour market by colluding with the owners. Odd, for all this talk of who is more important, turns out they need each other after all..
        First off, neither Matt or myself said the Owners should get anything. We've clearly been saying that we feel that it's in the best interest to the fan that the Owners win the negotiations. If you got the facts straight we probably wouldn't have been subjected to the rest of that statement, which doesn't make sense based on what we've actually been saying.

        Tim W. wrote: View Post
        No one has said it's impossible for small market teams to compete. But there should be restrictions in place that prevent a) teams from buying a Championship and b) elite players from simply banding together in the biggest market. Both appear to be how the NBA is moving, and I, for one, don't like it. Plus, when the majority of the teams are actually losing money, it's hard to blame it all on bad management.

        Like I've been saying. I'd just like to see the playing field levelled a little.
        Right, that's important.

        I've been saying that unless that small market team can afford to spend over cap they can't sustain or improve on their success. If they don't spend they become a farm team to those who can and then we're back to rinse and start over again. This is the problem with the calculations provided on the Internet. They're mindless number crunches which are not capturing the nature of what is happening. To work hard and make all the right moves in a rebuild for five years, only to lose it and have to rebuild again in half that time is model for suckers. This applies to half the Owners for sure. Those Owners have been suckers for a while now and they're trying to fix that the best they can. In the old model only those teams who have deep pockets can have long term sustainability.

        Comment


        • slaw wrote: View Post
          It's very easy to say that from the outside looking in but you aren't sacrificing anything. The long term implication was a giveback of about $3 billion over the life of the CBA. Plus, since you know that when the next CBA comes around the owners will claim they are all going broke and the system doesn't work, you are going to be giving up even more. The new system would also effectively wipe out the middle class and place massive restrictions on player movement (ed. note: I'm not going to get into your ridiculous semantic argument on incentives vs. restrictions). Also, Ric Bucher has noted that there were somewhere around 30 issues that were unresolved in the latest offer. Obviously, the players would have lost on all of those once they signed on to the main points.

          Look, the players' tactics were awful and the PA (Hunter et al.) should be crucified for the crappy job they have done over the last 2 years. Absolutely criticize them for that. But the players have granted massive concessions to the owners and have all but got down on their hands and knees begging for the owners to throw them a bone. They haven't. The owners are prepared to lose the season to get what they want. Is the PA at fault? Absolutely, but letting the owners off the hook in all this is senseless. The owners wanted this. They got it. It's only fair they own it as well.

          Hey, maybe Apollo and Matt are right and the owners should just get whatever they want and the union should just agree. Owners want 99% of BRI. Players should just agree. Well, in that case, the owners don't need the union, right? No one needs a union, right? Let's just let players sign their own deals. Oh wait, that would be bad Apollo and Matt would say. So, we need a union? Don't we? Ah, there's the rub. The idyllic world of competitive balance requires a cooperative union agreeing to control the labour market by colluding with the owners. Odd, for all this talk of who is more important, turns out they need each other after all..

          You clearly have not been reading my posts or have any idea of my views of this situation.

          Comment


          • I wasn't really thinking about the court date until just now. You know what? The Players really screwed up here. They waited way too long to play this card because if this thing isn't settled out of court then the season is lost. So pretty much the season is bleepin' lost. Man, that grinds my gears. There should have been a clear deadline for this and it should have been no latter than this time last month. As soon as they hit the deadline they should have acted on this stuff then. Ah well, at least I still have football.

            Comment


            • Apollo wrote: View Post
              I wasn't really thinking about the court date until just now. You know what? The Players really screwed up here. They waited way too long to play this card because if this thing isn't settled out of court then the season is lost. So pretty much the season is bleepin' lost. Man, that grinds my gears. There should have been a clear deadline for this and it should have been no latter than this time last month. As soon as they hit the deadline they should have acted on this stuff then. Ah well, at least I still have football.
              The only thing to keep in mind is IF the players are successful, they will be able to claim triple the damages for this lost season.

              If they are not successful though, they are screwed.

              Comment


              • By many of the players signing elsewhere to play basketball I believe they are hurting their chances in the antitrust claim. The owners are not limiting the players opportunities to play basketball, they are limiting the players opportunities to play basketball in the NBA due to the lockout. Again, this comes down to choices which it seems many of the issues of the CBA tend to revolve around.

                Aaron Brooks is the latest to sign in China.

                Comment


                • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  The only thing to keep in mind is IF the players are successful, they will be able to claim triple the damages for this lost season.

                  If they are not successful though, they are screwed.
                  How much the players will collect if the courts award them treble damages is still open to question. If a franchise who is already losing money has to pay $200 million in damages, it may decide to file for bankrupcy as it is unlikely to be solvent or in a position to be able to recoup these losses within a few years.

                  Every surviving franchise will have an extra $10+ million in debt servicing every year and will have to cut expenses, including player salaries.

                  Some players will come out ahead, others will be big losers in terms of career earnings as they may destroy their source of employment.

                  Comment


                  • I'm assuming it's player salaries x 3. I don't believe they're going to win for two reasons. First I think they're genuinely wrong. Second, we're talking about America here. It's one of the most corrupt places in the world right now. Who has more sway with politicians and the courts? Justice isn't a right there anymore, it's a privilege.

                    Comment


                    • Apollo wrote: View Post
                      Second, we're talking about America here. It's one of the most corrupt places in the world right now. Who has more sway with politicians and the courts? Justice isn't a right there anymore, it's a privilege.
                      I lived 30 years in Canada and 20 in the United States and frankly, I have not found justice to be significantly better or worse when comparing one country to another.

                      Comment


                      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        By many of the players signing elsewhere to play basketball I believe they are hurting their chances in the antitrust claim. The owners are not limiting the players opportunities to play basketball, they are limiting the players opportunities to play basketball in the NBA due to the lockout. Again, this comes down to choices which it seems many of the issues of the CBA tend to revolve around.

                        Aaron Brooks is the latest to sign in China.
                        The market in question isn't the world, it's the United States. If the "market" was the world, then there would never be any successful antitrust or monopoly cases. It's why the EU, the US, Canada, Australia, etc. all have their own competition boards and authorities - they each are a "market". It would be akin to competitors getting together and colluding in Canada and then saying, it's fine, you can always go buy our product from someone in China or Brazil.

                        Comment


                        • slaw wrote: View Post
                          The market in question isn't the world, it's the United States. If the "market" was the world, then there would never be any successful antitrust or monopoly cases. It's why the EU, the US, Canada, Australia, etc. all have their own competition boards and authorities - they each are a "market". It would be akin to competitors getting together and colluding in Canada and then saying, it's fine, you can always go buy our product from someone in China or Brazil.
                          There have been many other more informed people who have discussed this in the media than myself. The issue for players is regarding damages. If current players in the NBA are up and leaving to play all over the world, the credibility in the players claim of damages is in great question. The NBA owners are not forcing players to play in the NBA, they do have options elsewhere if they choose to pursue them.

                          Regarding the United States there is the ABA, NBDL (only teams with non-NBA affliation at this time), Texas Pro League, and the Premier Basketball League. I will have to respectfully disagree with your view regarding the options players have in the United States. The issue, once again, is the players choose to play in the NBA because that is where they will get the most money, even under these 'greedy' owners more recent proposal.

                          Comment


                          • Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                            I lived 30 years in Canada and 20 in the United States and frankly, I have not found justice to be significantly better or worse when comparing one country to another.
                            I think the point was less about the country, and more about the system. Odds are, the deeper pockets win this case.

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              Regarding the United States there is the ABA, NBDL (only teams with non-NBA affliation at this time), Texas Pro League, and the Premier Basketball League.
                              Don't forget the newly minted National Basketball League of Canada! They sent out a letter to NBA players letting them know they could play here.
                              "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                              "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                              "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

                              Comment


                              • Bleak

                                NBA owners had 20-minute conference call today in which David Stern updated them on labor situation. No strategy was discussed, source said.
                                One ownership source doubts there's a season: "There's just not enough time. I imagine another effort will be made toward end of December."
                                Source: Twitter @Chris_Broussard

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