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The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

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  • Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I was wondering the same. I believe that 30-day estimate includes 2-3 preseason games. I'm wondering if any preseason games are necessary at all. I realize the first 5-10 games could be quite ugly, but hey, desperate times call for desperate measures.
    I found the source here: http://www.nba.com/2011/news/feature...lks/index.html

    NBA commissioner David Stern has said repeatedly that the league would need 30 days from a handshake deal to tipoff of a regular season, not only to ratify a new collective bargaining agreement but to prepare for the business of basketball (free agency, training camps, a possible "preseason" game or two). That would suggest a deadline of Friday, Nov. 25, for Christmas to remain in play.

    But a source close to the settlement talks told NBA.com the turnaround time "theoretically" could be tightened by several days. Technically, the players' antitrust litigation that otherwise is set to begin next month in U.S. District Court in Minneapolis would have to be resolved out of court. An agreement would provide a framework for a new CBA between the owners and a re-formed union.
    I'm still ticked off that they didn't talk today though.. one less day to negotiate means a greater chance of missing a season.

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    • planetmars wrote: View Post
      I found the source here: http://www.nba.com/2011/news/feature...lks/index.html



      I'm still ticked off that they didn't talk today though.. one less day to negotiate means a greater chance of missing a season.
      It may well be that they are in fact done talking. There is a post above from Matt indicating that Stern is putting together another formal offer with some adjustment favourable to the players. This and Fisher's presence (travel) for the final decision and taking the pulse on both sides probably necessitates the 24 hr. break. Actually doubt if there'll be too much time for sweet potato pie if this scenario has substance.

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      • Nilanka wrote: View Post
        I was wondering the same. I believe that 30-day estimate includes 2-3 preseason games. I'm wondering if any preseason games are necessary at all. I realize the first 5-10 games could be quite ugly, but hey, desperate times call for desperate measures.
        I'm guessing they want at least a few preseason games to pare down the rosters, since teams usually have expanded rosters during training camp and the preseason.
        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
        Follow me on Twitter.

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        • If Stern really is in the process of preparing another offer, let's hope the players are actually allowed to vote on it. Novel idea, I know....

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          • Bendit wrote: View Post
            It may well be that they are in fact done talking. There is a post above from Matt indicating that Stern is putting together another formal offer with some adjustment favourable to the players. This and Fisher's presence (travel) for the final decision and taking the pulse on both sides probably necessitates the 24 hr. break. Actually doubt if there'll be too much time for sweet potato pie if this scenario has substance.
            With the original framework still being used, they really have little to discuss. Talks very well could be over.

            I hope this time Stern just says, "Here. This is what we can do. If you don't want to accept it, we'll figure it out in court and likely lose the season." and then leaves it at that - no Twitterview, no ESPN interviews, no confrontations, no anonymous 'sources' from the league.... just reality with no spin or rhetoric.

            *EDIT* Actually the B-list items could take some time. I would hope the owners would be very 'giving' on this front since they have basically crushed the players where it matters most and accounted for all their collective financial losses.
            Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu Nov 24, 2011, 06:06 PM.

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            • planetmars wrote: View Post
              I do understand how important Thanksgiving is to the US. I have family in the US, and this holiday is a big deal, but I would have considered missing Christmas games the breaking point. Otherwise what are we going to get? Another 50 game season? That was a joke. A lot of people in the league even admitted that they'd rather have a canceled season then a 50 game season.
              Who are these people? I'm assuming they're not the players who currently are not getting paid or those players who were concerned enough to go play in China, Greece, etc.

              planetmars wrote: View Post
              Christmas is exactly 30 days from now. Since today is a write off, that means Christmas games are canceled - and with that hope of a season.
              If they truly cared about the Christmas games and felt that was the breaking point do you feel it would be wise to blow off negotiations until now? I mean seriously, if they cared they'd have been talking about this before Thanksgiving.

              planetmars wrote: View Post
              These guys should be talking all the time, not when its convenient for their families, or else it makes it seem like they honestly don't really care about getting the season up and running again. If the league nor the players really care about the season, then I guess why should I as a fan really care either.. it's just sad really.
              They should be talking all the time so that they don't need to worry about fans questioning why they're not all meeting in some stuffy conference room while the critical ones are sipping beers, eating turkey, watching football and enjoying their national holiday with their family and friends.

              The Owners have placed the onus on the Players to come back. The Players haven't been calling. They need every games more than the Owners.

              Comment


              • planetmars wrote: View Post
                I found the source here: http://www.nba.com/2011/news/feature...lks/index.html



                I'm still ticked off that they didn't talk today though.. one less day to negotiate means a greater chance of missing a season.
                Thanks for the find.


                Woj with an update surely dropped to him by an agent:


                WojYahooNBA As president of NBPA, Fisher and players have to protect selves from league charge that disbanding of union was a "sham" negotiating tactic.

                WojYahooNBA Derek Fisher will attend Friday's labor settlement meeting, source tells Y! Given legal complications, it suggests a deal is within reach.

                Representatives of the owners and players spoke on Tuesday and Wednesday to discuss the possible settlement of the players’ recent antitrust lawsuits – which would essentially be an agreement on a new collective bargaining agreement. It’s felt Fisher’s appearance is needed to reach agreement on a deal.

                Several high-ranking sources – on the league and players sides – believe there’s a do-or-die nature to getting a deal done to start the season on Dec. 25 and preserve a 66-game regular season.

                Once again, the Players Association will have familiar negotiating faces in the room with the owners’ representatives: Fisher, executive director Billy Hunter, staff lawyer Ron Klempner and antitrust suit lawyers. Some on the players’ side still fear Stern is setting up the players with these talks and will use the participation of key union figures to show the disbanding of the union wasn’t for the purpose of filing antitrust suit in court, but gaining leverage in negotiations. Fisher understood the consequences, but sources believe there’s so much motivation to reach an agreement to end the lockout he needed to join the negotiating sessions.

                “They felt they needed Derek there to continue,” one high-ranking league official told Yahoo! Sports.

                The deal still centers on agreeing upon several key issues, including the escrow system and the use of full midlevel exceptions for tax-playing teams. The players are willing to agree to a 50-50 revenue split with the owners, provided some system issues are resolved. The owners appear to have again backed off their threats to return to a “reset” offer of a 53-47 revenue split in the owners’ favor and a hard salary cap.

                Source: Yahoo!
                Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu Nov 24, 2011, 10:28 PM.

                Comment


                • What owners/players continue to squabble over with season on the line

                  So here is a look at what is on the players’ wish list. Remember, when the players offered to do a 50-50 split, they did so with the caveat that they’d need five or six key system changes to drop to that number. Thus far, they haven’t gotten enough of those changes.

                  _ The mid-level exception: The sides have already agreed on the max salary for mid-level free agents — a $5 million starting salary– who sign with teams that are beneath the luxury tax threshold. The owners want teams to be limited to offering a four-year mid-level contract one year, then a three-year mid-level the next, then back to four, then three, etc. In numerals, it is 4-3-4-3-4-3. If the owners go to 4-4-4-4-4-4, one item is off the table.

                  _ The mini mid-level: This is the exception that would be available to teams above the luxury tax threshold, and the owners have already moved from a max of $5 million spread over two years to allow taxpaying teams to offer three-year deals. The small-market owners are pretty hard-core on this one, because they do not want system in which the highest earning teams (i.e. the Lakers) can compete on a level playing field in the mid-level free agent market. That is also the reason why owners want taxpaying teams to be excluded from executing sign-and-trade deals.

                  _ The escrow system:I wrote about this yesterday, describing it as the most contentious of the remaining disputed issues. Escrow funds are withheld from players’ paychecks to ensure that total salaries do not exceed a pre-determined percentage. The players are willing to have 10 percent withheld, but there is a question of what will happen if those funds do not reduce the players’ share to 50 percent of BRI. Does the shortage carry over into the next season? Do the players have to dip into a different pool of money (pension benefits, group licensing revenues) to make up the difference? This will be a tough nut to crack.

                  _ The split: It has become common to say that the sides have agreed to a 50-50 split of basketball related income, but it actually is little more complicated. The owners have proposed a split in which the players would receive between 49 and 51 percent of designated revenues, but the players have complained that the realistic ceiling is 50.2 percent. If they do not get all the system changes they are seeking, they want the rules loosened so that a 51 percent ceiling (or a 50.4 percent or 50.6 percent share) becomes more achievable.

                  _ The pay-for-performance issue: When Derrick Rose becomes an unrestricted free agent, he will be eligible for a max salary equal to 25 percent of the salary cap. Veterans with 7-9 years of service can get 30 percent, and players with 10 or more years in the league can get 35 percent. The sides have discussed instituting a system under which certain young players would be eligible for a 30 percent max contract if they achieve certain benchmarks while playing under the rookie scale. In Rose’s case, winning the MVP award last season would push him into 30 percent eligibility territory. The question for today is what other types of benchmarks can be set that would put other young players into the 30 percent eligibility category.

                  _ Restricted free agency: The sides have already agreed that the matching period for teams at risk of losing a restricted free agent will be cut from 7 days to 3. Still unresolved is the size of the qualifying offers that must be made to restricted free agents in order for teams to retain matching rights. The players want big increases in the size of qualifying offers in order to make restricted free agency even less restrictive.

                  _ The Carmelo Anthony rule: Owners want to prohibit the type of extend-and-trade deal that Anthony wrangled out of the Denver Nuggets last season when he forced his old team to trade him to the New York Knicks. This system issue could have an immediate impact on Dwight Howard and Deron Williams. If the prohibition stays, Williams and Howard are going to lose a lot of leverage if they plan to force their way out of New Jersey/Brooklyn and Orlando, respectively. They could still be traded during the upcoming season, but their new teams would have to re-sign them as unrestricted free agents in the summer of 2012.

                  Source: SheridanHoops.com

                  The pay for performance pisses me off. The players want it both ways with reward for over achievement relative to contract and no accountability for lack of performance once the ink dries on the new contract (excluding injuries, of course).

                  And don't forget the B-list items!

                  Comment


                  • Here we go again

                    NBPA Executive committee members privately expressing unprecedented optimism that a deal will get done this time. League sources too.
                    Source: Twitter @sam_amick

                    Seriously, this time we mean it.

                    Comment


                    • Apollo wrote: View Post
                      Source: Twitter @sam_amick

                      Seriously, this time we mean it.


                      Chris_Broussard Chris Broussard
                      Another good sign: NBA owners have Labor Relations Committee conference call scheduled for later tonite, sources say
                      No, they really, really mean it this time.

                      Comment


                      • The PA seems overly giddy. Did Stern give them a collective blow job?

                        That was meant to be metaphorical because the visual of the real thing comes across as sorta messy.

                        Hope he didn't give away too much on the system.

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                        • Congratulations guys
                          Official Pope of the Raptors sponsored by MLSE.

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                          • Tentative agreement reached!

                            http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/72...tive-agreement


                            Still to be voted on but an agreement has been reached.

                            Comment


                            • It's not over yet. The confetti is still dropping the dancing is carrying on, but the NBA isn't back... yet. Not officially, at least. For that to happen, the new collective bargaining agreement must be voted on by both the players and owners and then made official.

                              Question is, is there really a chance that one of the two sides might not vote for the new CBA? As one veteran player texted Yahoo! Sports, "We (bleeping) caved," he said as he indicated he would vote no on approving a new deal.

                              However, don't panic. Because Yahoo! also reports that it's going to pass.

                              "There will be a significant number of players who will not vote to approve this deal, but there won't be a majority. The deal will pass."

                              The vote will likely take place either Saturday or Sunday and as mentioned, all indications are that it will pass with ease. If the way players reacted on Twitter is any indication, it seems they are all ready to play no matter what the new CBA says.

                              If for some reason it didn't, it would be absolute mayhem. All the hard work would be gone and the season would almost certainly be lost. But don't fear: That's not happening. Both sides have put their full faith and trust in their bargaining groups and you can be sure that the deal agreed to in principle is one that both sides are entirely comfortable will pass.
                              Source: CBSSports.com

                              Comment


                              • Few details released

                                Interestingly, Quinn was not present for the negotiating finale. Neither was NBPA outside counsel Jeffrey Kessler, who had been quietly pushed out of his role as lead negotiator. Stern, Holt, deputy commissioner Adam Silver, general counsel Rick Buchanan and deputy general counsel Dan Rube closed the deal for the owners. The players were represented by Hunter, Fisher, executive committee member Maurice Evans, general counsel Ron Klempner, economist Kevin Murphy and two outside attorneys.

                                According to Yahoo Sports, however, Kessler reappeared at a crucial juncture of Friday's talks and proposed a 51-49 split of basketball-related income (BRI) in favor of the players that left owners dismayed when they were consulted by phone. The two sides had previously agreed to a 50-50 split of BRI, but one option to achieve that was a model that would give the players a range of between 49 and 51 percent.

                                Under the owners' most recently proposed system, the players felt it would have been almost impossible to achieve the 51 percent ceiling. Feeling emboldened by their antitrust lawsuit and the leverage it might provide -- and confident that a nearly $3 billion giveback over 10 years by agreeing to reduce their share significantly from the 57 percent they received in the prior agreement -- the players went into Friday's session hoping to get significant movement on a list of six outstanding system issues. In practice, achieving what they were seeking on most or all of those issues would have by definition, resulted in a chance to get closer to the 51 percent of BRI.

                                Neither side divulged details of the agreement reached early Saturday, but sources said the players were most concerned about the availability of the mid-level exception and sign-and-trades for luxury tax-paying teams and the definition of a tax-paying team. But they felt that it was possible to get the owners to agree to four-year mid-level deals for non tax-payers (instead of alternating three- and four-year deals) and higher max contracts for star players who achieve certain benchmarks while under their rookie contracts (increasing the max from 25 percent of the cap to 30 percent). The players also were pushing for significantly enhanced qualifying offers for restricted free agents, which they believed along with a shorter match period (from seven days to three) and fully guaranteed qualifying offers -- both already agreed to -- would create a more liberal market for those players.

                                With some movement from the owners on those technical aspects, the players' negotiators believed they could present a deal that the union membership would embrace despite the massive economic concessions, shorter contracts, smaller raises and other restrictions the owners insisted on to address their dual problems of $300 million in annual losses and competitive imbalance. Under the paradigm previously agreed to, the players retained guaranteed contracts; fought off the owners' efforts to impose a hard team salary cap; withstood their attempt to shrink max salaries and roll back existing contracts; and kept the existing salary cap (about $58 million) and luxury tax level ($70 million) in place for the first two years of the 10-year agreement. The owners also agreed to increase the minimum team salary from 75 percent of the cap to 90 percent -- a provision that, along with a vastly enhanced revenue-sharing plan, will ensure that low-revenue teams will compete for free agents and spend money on players.

                                A person familiar with the agreement said the owners' greatest compromises were in the areas of restricted free agency and the middle class. There was some compromise on the issues of sign-and-trades and mid-level exceptions for tax-paying teams.

                                "I think it will largely prevent the high-spending teams from competing in the free agency market in the way they’ve been able to in the past," deputy commissoner Adam Silver said. "As I said, it’s a compromise. It’s not the system we sought out to get, in terms of a harder cap. But the luxury tax is harsher than it was in the past deal, and we hope it’s effective. You never can be sure, with how a new system will work. But we feel ultimately it will give fans in every community hope that their team can compete for championships."

                                Stern downplayed the players' antitrust lawsuits, which were consolidated and refiled in Minnesota this past week, as a significant factor in achieving the deal. With 30 days needed to prepare for a Dec. 25 start, the negotiators for both sides had pushed their slow, often painful dance to the last possible moment before the lockout would've wreaked devastating effects.
                                Source: CBSSports.com


                                It will be interesting to see the final details.

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