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Anyone at MLSE paying attention? Even GSW can get their act together on GM

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  • #16
    To be clear, while I do prefer BC is kept on at GM, my frustration is not only stemming from re-signing or not re-signing BC. My frustration is that the franchise is at a critical juncture and there is no extension for current GM nor is there no search underway for a replacement - that is a farce, in my opinion, and doing more harm than good in the big picture.

    GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    First off OTPP is a majority share holder in MLSE... that means they do have an influence in the day to day operations of the corporation, but thats significantly different than being a direct owner of a company. They do not sit there and tell MLSE or the Toronto Raptors exactly what to do. They do however help decide how money will/should be allocated. They do have an influence over how much money will go to salary, they do not however decide how salary will be spent... they exception ofcourse being the executive branches.
    I have to disagree on the influence OTPP has on the day to day operations of the company. The very fact that Richard Peddie and Larry Tanenbaum have come out and publically supported BC is a clear indication that the OTPP are telling MLSE and the Raptors exactly what to do on this situation.

    If you look around the league, look at lvls of success and failure, GMs that have been moved and brought in... you will find this ownership group is not nearly as bad as others out there. Its easy to say they are the worst because this team is bad, and they are a big faceless corporation, but just spend sometime reading up on other owners, ownership groups, their involvement with their teams, their actions.... many other teams failures can be directly attributed to onwerships. This teams is due to its GM.
    The discussion of the state of the team is irrelevant to my frustration: resign BC or let him go, but do something. Not resigning him while not starting a search is a sure-fire way to ensure the franchise wastes another year given its current state. I have and do follow other teams in the league. Given where the Raptors currently are and the level of success they have had over the last 5 years since BC has been here, the team would be considered average in my opinion. Two playoff appearances with one division title, a season where they collapsed over the final 25 games and missed playoffs on last day of season, a season where the Jermaine O'Neal gamble failed is not great but it is the best this franchise has ever seen. The Raptors have had more regular season success over the last 5 years than any other stretch in the franchise history.

    One of the interesting things I find here is how people who like (or maybe atleast don't dislike) BC still don't like MLSE and even further OTPP. Which I find interesting. When they signed BC they gave him free reigns to do as he pleased, took a step back from the organization. Almost everything this team has done over the past 5 years is BCs child.... the only exception perhaps being Sam Mitchell, but he also did resign him after one year (any of the few players left when his first season started could have been potentially been moved... the majority were...., Bosh was signed to an extension under BC, Jose and Mo Pete weren't BCs but they were quality players anyways) While they didn't open the wallet to unlimited spending they did allow him to spend up to the max, with the ability to spend over if it would be worthwhile. There are not alot of teams that get that privilege. They more or less gave him the ability to do what he wanted, within reasons, which I would think should be supported by those who are on BC's side(?).
    I've never had much problem with the ownership situation until recently when it has been reported that an accountant with no basketball experience outside of recreation is holding up the GM situation. The people who make the sports-related decisions (Peddie, Tenennbaum) are all supportive of BC and want him back. The fact remains that if OTPP/MLSE do not want him back, then start the search for a replacement, get the ball rolling, be proactive - it is the fans and sponsors afterall that generate the revenues for the franchise. This situation is not helping fans or sponsors right now with so much uncertainty hanging over the leadership and future of the franchise.

    The comment of spending and implied generousity of the OTPP/MLSE is very arguable given what teams have spent on salaries this season. A review of team payrolls (link: HoopsHype) shows 8 teams who are luxury tax payers (payroll over $70.3M) with 6 of the 8 being playoff teams (UTA and HOU exceptions). The salary cap is actually $58M of which 24 teams of 30 are over and with 8 teams over the luxury tax there are then another 13 teams within $5M of the luxury tax. Basically there are 21 teams in the league with a payroll of $65M or greater. Most owners in the league spend money. Of the teams not included within the $5M range to the luxury tax, another team is $6M away (IND) and the rest are all lottery teams with the exception of OKC and CHI. OKC and CHI are at $57M and $55M respectively and are as successful as they are after multiple years in the lottery and, in the case of CHI, a stroke of very good luck. With the uncertainty of the new CBA, going by the old rules, both of those teams are going to be at or near luxury tax levels in 1-2 seasons as developed lottery players go off rookie deals (Rose and Westbrook, specifically).

    That said I guess I'm the opposite... I have nothing against MLSE or OTPP but do not like what BC has done with this team. I have no issues with them as they are a strong ownership group, which greatly reduces the possibility of the team being moved. It is also an ownership group with a lot of $, which means given the right situation, they will be open to spend above the cap... thereby helping create the possibility of a championship team in Toronto. (note: I don't think spending money necessarily means winning, but there aren't a lot of teams who win that don't spend. While having money doesn't guarantee it will be spent, its atleast is more likely than not having money).
    The idea of MLSE keeping the team from being moved is not based on sound thinking in my opinion. They are the 10th most valuable franchise in the league according to Forbes, even being third worst in the league the attendance was still 19th in the league and has been in the upper third for most seasons (look at ATL's attendance relative to success), TOR is the 4th largest market in North America, and the Raptors have a fan base of an entire country versus just one city which is very good for Stern and the NBA.

    Now I just want to take note that I have not always disliked BC... I do however think that he has made some very bad decisions since he took over. I'm not sure if they were due to an overreaction due to injuries, Bosh potentially leaving etc, or if it was due to arrogance in his own ability. I was initially excited about him coming, happy with his first year, satisfied with his second, understanding of his 3rd, disappointed in this 4th, disgusted with his 5th. I think any of his good moves have been suprpassed by his bad ones.... and more than anything his unwillingness to let go of this Bargnani dream he has led to the majority of this teams problems (that and both building around and not trading Bosh... when it was abundantly clear that Bosh was neither someone to build around or was going to stick around with the team).
    From what I'm seeing you were happy when the team went from 5th worst to Atlantic championship and playoff contender - rightfully so. Steps were taken to improve roster weaknesses (C) in an attempt to become more than a first round exit (JO trade) and it failed. The next plan (Turk) also failed at the end of the season despite a slow start they were still 5th at the ASG break and missed the playoffs on the last day of the season. I find it ironic that this year is disgusting when the moves made by BC has given them the 5th lowest payroll next season (lower if Barbosa opts out) and has started with a base of solid draft picks in DD and ED and young players with potential to develop in to solid role players. No doubt this team is lacking a franchise player but those are usually only obtained through the draft which we have a high draft pick for the first time in 6 years. The rumours and change in company line regarding Bargnani (trade) makes it quite clear that there is an unwillingness to not trade Bargnani. Any trade that makes the team better in the long term, I have confidence BC will do. The Bosh has been discussed numerous times but really only has a solid foundation with the benefit of hindsight - no team was willing to give fair value for a player unwilling to sign an extension and why would the Raps trade him when they were 5th around the trade deadline after a slow start? I do agree Bosh was not a guy to build around but there are really only 5 or 6 players in the league worthy of considering franchise guys so every team tends to build around someone.

    I will be highly disappointed in MLSE if BC is resigned with this team.... I will much less disappointed if BC is resigned and does something about the failed Bargnani experiment. Atleast then he and this organization can start taking steps forward rather than backwards or sideways.
    We'll have to disagree on this. I do think the orgnization has taken considerable steps forward. I also think BC is to be commended for not putting his own situation before the team. I think he could have made deals that would have got the team in to the playoffs but it would have created a Charlotte type situation or the situation Indiana has been in for the last 5 years.

    I made this comment in another thread at one time about the hypocricy of fans wanting a winning team but those same fans being unwilling to go through what it takes to get there - i.e. some losing seasons with high draft picks the 'reward'. Everyone seems to agree the best way to build a team is through the draft so here we are. Presti in OKC is given much praise however the franchise lost a lot in the beginning as the team was built to what it is today. BC made a winner immediately only to watch it fall apart through injuries/flawed cornerstones and now we are back to another rebuild. Given his prior work in TOR and PHX and the current state of the roster, I have no doubt he can do it again - and faster than many think (do not forget the OKC went from 33 to 31 to 20 to 23 to 50 wins between playoff appearences). In fact, forgetting the current GM situation, I am very optimistic that a franchise that can compete for the top of the standings and deep playoff pushes can be built rather than an 7/8th seed franchise or borderline playoffs franchise. I also have no doubt Bargnani and Calderon will be moved if a good deal can be found.

    I think we as fans put way too much credence into who or what owns a team. The ones I would be much more concerned about are the ones who stick their nose into the GMs business and limit his ability to do what he wants or needs to do. Not the ones that sit back and say run this team and your next contract will be based on what you achieved. This ownersip group is making the right decision as of right now by not yet resignin BC. Both from a financial perspective (ie. OTPP want to keep costs low in order to potentially sell their share) and from a team perspective (ie. not rewarding BC for spending 5 years to build a 22 win team). While I do want stable management with this team... I want good stable management, not just the status quo because its easy.
    Again, before I even begin, I'll have to start by saying we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I agree on the owners sticking noses in, however, given the accoutant representing 2/3's of the ownership is holding up the re-signing of BC when the Chairman of MLSE (and 20% minority owner) and the CEO and President of MLSE want him back - I think Pinocchio is lying up a storm down the hall. This is a very accomplished GM with 2 EOY awards (which are voted on by peers), numerous compliments from Peddie and Tanenbaum, and high praise from people like Barkley at ASG and Cuban during Mavs last visit. To say that BC spent 5 years to build a 22 win team forgets 2 playoff appearances, an Atlantic division title, and missing last year on the final day of the season due to injuries and players quitting. The fact these two troubled years delivered ED and DD at 9 and 13 while still being competitive is a good thing. Even this year after a slow start and before the season was decimated by injuries, people here and in the media were discussing playoff possibilities. I do not think if the path of success was reversed (i.e. 22, 40, 33, 41, 47) anyone would be debating whether or not BC was suitable for the job or should be kept on.

    Forgetting the fact I think BC should be resigned, not actively pursuing a replacement is a huge mistake as well. I'm not sure if the financial perspective is that relevant when it would be less than 1% of the purchase price and a GM with BC's experience is in charge. Guys like Billy Knight and Ed Stefanski leave teams for whatever reasons only to land somewhere else and enjoy success there - it doesn't mean they are not competent at their profession.

    Given the fact the Raptors have had the best 5 year stretch of regular season basketball with 2 postseason appearances and a third lost on the final day of the season under BC and prior to this there were 3 appearances in 11 years, none in the previous 4 years before he arrived, and 33 wins being the highest the Raps ever achieved in the non-playoff years, I think Raptors fans have a case of selective memory going on what Colangelo has done with the franchise during his time here.

    This is a long post. To wrap up, my view from your post is that you think Bargnani is awful and BC won't trade him therefore you are disgusted by BC and OTPP is right not to extend him. While my line of thought has been questioned with possible assumptions I have made (which is fine), I think the same argument can be made towards your line of thinking and drawn assumptions (which is also fine).

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    • #17
      GarbageTime wrote: View Post
      One of the interesting things I find here is how people who like (or maybe atleast don't dislike) BC still don't like MLSE and even further OTPP. Which I find interesting. When they signed BC they gave him free reigns to do as he pleased, took a step back from the organization. Almost everything this team has done over the past 5 years is BCs child.... the only exception perhaps being Sam Mitchell, but he also did resign him after one year (any of the few players left when his first season started could have been potentially been moved... the majority were...., Bosh was signed to an extension under BC, Jose and Mo Pete weren't BCs but they were quality players anyways) While they didn't open the wallet to unlimited spending they did allow him to spend up to the max, with the ability to spend over if it would be worthwhile. There are not alot of teams that get that privilege. They more or less gave him the ability to do what he wanted, within reasons, which I would think should be supported by those who are on BC's side(?).
      Nicely Said. There are many GMs who envy the freedom and resources and support that BC had in Toronto for the past five years. BC was given all the tools to success and has made terrible mistakes that are hard to look passed on.


      GarbageTime wrote: View Post
      Now I just want to take note that I have not always disliked BC... I do however think that he has made some very bad decisions since he took over. I'm not sure if they were due to an overreaction due to injuries, Bosh potentially leaving etc, or if it was due to arrogance in his own ability. I was initially excited about him coming, happy with his first year, satisfied with his second, understanding of his 3rd, disappointed in this 4th, disgusted with his 5th.
      Same here. I was one of his biggest fans till I saw all the questionable moves that he made over the years here. The fact that he has blown the team up over 3 times now, signs player one summer and moves them next and ... just tells me that he is out of answers here and he has nothing more to offer. He may become successful again some where else but he is out of answers in Toronto.

      BC's mistakes started with drafting AB as the first over all pick but it does not finish and it is not limited to just AB. He has made mistake in almost 70-80% of all his transactions and moves.
      Although, he is good at blowing the team up, shipping out his mistakes out of the town ( JO, Hedo) and start from Zero again, but at some point of time you have to ask yourself, how many times are we going to start from zero again ?

      As I said before, these sort of repeated mistake by the same offender and lack of progress will not fly in any other professional cooperation out there in the real world and I hope the MLSE also wakes up and stop this non-sense and waste of time, money and resources in the hands of BC.
      Last edited by Raptor4Ever; Sun Apr 17, 2011, 04:05 PM.

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