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Is the new focus of AB as PF for the benefit of the Raps in a trade or next year?

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  • #16
    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    If BC is able to get the tough, defensive-minded C he has been looking for, then I am 99.9% sure that either Bargnani or Amir will get traded.
    One or both might need to get traded in a deal to get that center.

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    • #17
      Apollo wrote: View Post
      One or both might need to get traded in a deal to get that center.
      True indeed. This should be another interesting offseason to say the least.

      I was wondering about a deal that ships out Amir and brings back Oden... may have to include a 3rd and/or 4th team, since Portland is set at the 4 with Aldridge. If Oden can come back healthy (big IF I know), a 3-big rotation of Oden/Davis/Bargnani could be good, especially if the PG/SG/SF defense is improved over last season.
      Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Apr 19, 2011, 11:35 AM.

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      • #18
        CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
        If BC is able to get the tough, defensive-minded C he has been looking for, then I am 99.9% sure that either Bargnani or Amir will get traded.

        To me, there are pros & cons of both moves:

        BARGNANI
        + 20+ppg C/PF, 26 years old, making $10M over the next couple seasons
        + offensive ability to spread the floor, pull the defensive C away from the basket, decent court vision and passing ability
        - horrendous defense, especially help-defense
        - no desire for rebounding

        AMIR
        + heart & hustle, leaves it all on the court
        + improving short/mid-range shot and FT shooting
        - foul prone, which serious impacts his ability to stay on the floor to consistently play 'starters minutes'
        - game is very similar to Davis, making him a little bit redundant

        For me, it probably would come down to which player would net the Raptors a better return in a trade.

        Assuming the new defensive C is truly a good one, then my preference would be to trade Amir. I love Amir, but with him basically being a copy of Davis who is becoming the starting PF of the future, Amir has become a bit redundant. I think his $5M contract makes him highly desirable and much easier to trade than Bargnani. I also like the fact that New-C/Davis/Bargnani gives the team much more lineup variation to exploit matchups than a New-C/Davis/Amir lineup would.
        Okay, I don't understand this thinking at all. How on earth is having Davis and Amir redundant? They both rebound, play defense, score efficiently, work hard and move well without the ball. They are both the types of players you want on a contender. Amir is probably best suited to come of the bench, whereas Davis' future seems pretty much set as the starting PF of the Raptors. MOst importantly, the two can, and have, played together on the court. WHile both need to gain strength, they should be able to eventually both play both PF and center.

        As for who to trade, you don't want to trade the guy with the most trade value. You want to trade the guy who is least likely to contribute to a contender. And that's Bargnani. Couple that with the fact that Amir has a better contract, I really don't see why you'd trade Amir instead of Bargnani. Plus...Bargnani's lack of defense and rebounding will still be a problem no matter who he plays with. We've had 5 years of this and it's become pretty obvious that it's too much of a problem. He's really not that good. Let's just get rid of him and turn the chapter on that part of the Raptors.
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        • #19
          Tim W. wrote: View Post
          Okay, I don't understand this thinking at all. How on earth is having Davis and Amir redundant? They both rebound, play defense, score efficiently, work hard and move well without the ball. They are both the types of players you want on a contender. Amir is probably best suited to come of the bench, whereas Davis' future seems pretty much set as the starting PF of the Raptors. MOst importantly, the two can, and have, played together on the court. WHile both need to gain strength, they should be able to eventually both play both PF and center.

          As for who to trade, you don't want to trade the guy with the most trade value. You want to trade the guy who is least likely to contribute to a contender. And that's Bargnani. Couple that with the fact that Amir has a better contract, I really don't see why you'd trade Amir instead of Bargnani. Plus...Bargnani's lack of defense and rebounding will still be a problem no matter who he plays with. We've had 5 years of this and it's become pretty obvious that it's too much of a problem. He's really not that good. Let's just get rid of him and turn the chapter on that part of the Raptors.
          The first thing I said was that my decision as GM would likely ultimately hinge on what I could get back for each player. I personally think that the best way to make a team better is to deal from a position of strength/depth, as that will hurt your team the least. If that approach also is the best way to add an impact player in return, than it's a win-win.

          I don't want Davis or Amir to ever play C, as they would be undersized and playing out of position. I don't think the Raps would generate enough offense with the two of them, as they both are at their best when playing low on the blocks.

          I love Amir, but if the Raps can add the defensive-C or address weaknesses at other positions by dealing Amir, then I would go for it. As good as Amir is and as much as I like having him on the team, he's essentially a backup, with the emergence of Davis. I just think that Davis/Bargnani gives you more variation on offense than Davis/Amir. Where I'm coming from is that I think losing Amir hurts the team less than losing Bargnani would (I wouldn't think this without having seen Davis emerge as the starting PF) AND I think the team could get more for Amir than Bargnani - lose less and gain more.

          I'm not hating, I'm just trying to be objective and it's just my opinion.

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          • #20
            CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
            The first thing I said was that my decision as GM would likely ultimately hinge on what I could get back for each player. I personally think that the best way to make a team better is to deal from a position of strength/depth, as that will hurt your team the least. If that approach also is the best way to add an impact player in return, than it's a win-win.

            I don't want Davis or Amir to ever play C, as they would be undersized and playing out of position. I don't think the Raps would generate enough offense with the two of them, as they both are at their best when playing low on the blocks.

            I love Amir, but if the Raps can add the defensive-C or address weaknesses at other positions by dealing Amir, then I would go for it. As good as Amir is and as much as I like having him on the team, he's essentially a backup, with the emergence of Davis. I just think that Davis/Bargnani gives you more variation on offense than Davis/Amir. Where I'm coming from is that I think losing Amir hurts the team less than losing Bargnani would (I wouldn't think this without having seen Davis emerge as the starting PF) AND I think the team could get more for Amir than Bargnani - lose less and gain more.

            I'm not hating, I'm just trying to be objective and it's just my opinion.
            What's best for the team is to keep the types of players that help you win. Amir and Davis are those types of players, so there's no way on earth I trade either of them. In fact, I'd rather trade every single player on the team, including DeRozan (who I don't want to trade), than either of those two. Why? Because they're the only players on the team that I believe play the game the "right way".

            What's best for the team is not to necessarily get the most back but to have the right type of players on the team. That's Amir and Davis. And it's NOT Bargnani. I don't care if you get more for Amir because there's a reason you'd get more for Amir. You'd get even more for Davis, probably, but there's not way I trade him, either.

            And I'm not suggesting that either Davis or Amir be the starting center, but to back up the position for 10 or 15 minutes a game. They're not ideal to do that now, but in a couple of years they'll be more than fine. The Raptors aren't going to go out and contend next year, so there really shouldn't be any hurry.

            As for them playing together, I see them as similar to the Davis' who played for the Pacers in the late 90s. They were both similar players but excelled together. It's not as if they both are scorers that would get in each other's way. They both don't need the ball to be effective. They are guys that don't need to be on a certain spot on the floor to be effective. Amir played A LOT of high post this season, which was helped by the fact that his 15 foot jumper improved vastly. And Davis' jumper seems to be coming along fairly well.

            Just because Amir may have more trade value, doesn't mean you trade him and keep the flawed player that is far more of a problem. What sense does that make?
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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            • #21
              Tim W. wrote: View Post
              What's best for the team is to keep the types of players that help you win. Amir and Davis are those types of players, so there's no way on earth I trade either of them. In fact, I'd rather trade every single player on the team, including DeRozan (who I don't want to trade), than either of those two. Why? Because they're the only players on the team that I believe play the game the "right way".

              What's best for the team is not to necessarily get the most back but to have the right type of players on the team. That's Amir and Davis. And it's NOT Bargnani. I don't care if you get more for Amir because there's a reason you'd get more for Amir. You'd get even more for Davis, probably, but there's not way I trade him, either.

              And I'm not suggesting that either Davis or Amir be the starting center, but to back up the position for 10 or 15 minutes a game. They're not ideal to do that now, but in a couple of years they'll be more than fine. The Raptors aren't going to go out and contend next year, so there really shouldn't be any hurry.

              As for them playing together, I see them as similar to the Davis' who played for the Pacers in the late 90s. They were both similar players but excelled together. It's not as if they both are scorers that would get in each other's way. They both don't need the ball to be effective. They are guys that don't need to be on a certain spot on the floor to be effective. Amir played A LOT of high post this season, which was helped by the fact that his 15 foot jumper improved vastly. And Davis' jumper seems to be coming along fairly well.

              Just because Amir may have more trade value, doesn't mean you trade him and keep the flawed player that is far more of a problem. What sense does that make?
              It's really impossible to argue anything rational with you because you see absolutely no value in Bargnani. All I'm saying is that if you can trade a backup, redundant PF for an equally good player that could start for the team at another position, it makes sense, regardless as to whether or not they keep Bargnani.

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              • #22
                CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                It's really impossible to argue anything rational with you because you see absolutely no value in Bargnani. All I'm saying is that if you can trade a backup, redundant PF for an equally good player that could start for the team at another position, it makes sense, regardless as to whether or not they keep Bargnani.
                Stop wasting your time. Tim doesn't care about any solutions that involve Bargnani. Even if an ideal solution worked, he'd still find a reason to back his opinion.

                Fact is, if Bargani is traded, and a defensive Centre is acquired (separately or not), then Davis could very well get 30-32 minutes, leaving Amir with 15 - 20 minutes per game. In this scenario, I can't see AJ being satisfied with his minutes going down - especially if Andrea is moved. As for both being on the Court together (in order to rectify Amir's drop in minutes), I just can't agree with them handling true Bigs together - at this time. If Davis increases in size and strength, it's possible, but now we have a big IF being thrown into the equation.

                But let's say both increase their size and strength - how does Amir handle that change, considering his history with injuries. What effect would this have on AJ's quickness, and will he become even more foul prone. Suffice to say, that if Andrea is gone, BC (I hope its' him in charge) will look not just for a Starting Centre, but a back-up guy as well. And that means Johnson will be bound for somewhere else.


                Here's some more of Tim's perspectives:

                As for who to trade, you don't want to trade the guy [Amir] with the most trade value. [Tim W. ]
                Wow. Nothing else to say on this type of statement.

                WHile both need to gain strength, they should be able to eventually both play both PF and center. [Tim W. ]
                A Big who's really a Big, would demolish Amir. Or if not that, the constant banging would have him back on the injury list. Considering Johnson's ankle (an unknown at this time) and back problems, the risk is higher with AJ if we follow through with this scenario (Ed & Amir together). If Amir really is healthy, then why not move him now - regardless of whether you move Andrea - as his trade value is at a peak.

                In fact, I'd rather trade every single player on the team, including DeRozan (who I don't want to trade), than either of those two. [Tim W. ]
                Let's see now. No Andrea. No Demar. But we'd have Davis & Johnson. Sure, our defense will be better, but our Offense will be not just horrible, but down right embarrassing.

                And I'm not suggesting that either Davis or Amir be the starting center, but to back up the position for 10 or 15 minutes a game. They're not ideal to do that now, but in a couple of years they'll be more than fine. [Tim W. ]
                And Tim knows this, because his Genie told him?

                The irony of all this, is that it's not Bargnani who will impede Davis in his PF role - as it seems AB is on a short leash (here or gone) - but Amir who will affect it. And as such, AJ will eventually be moved. When it comes to playing time, I can't accept all this love and camaraderie that goes with being friends/buddies. Take the Derozan/Weems situation. I'm of the belief that Weems stunted Demar's progress in the first year, and that the best thing that could happen to DD, will be when Sonny has moved on.

                With respect to Amir & Ed, this talk about not being a Contender (for some time), just seems to reinforce my perspective on player roles. Why keep 2 of the same players, when Raptor's needs are all across the board - Starting PG, Back-up SG, Starting SF, Centre.

                Now Tim will say that I can't let go of the Andrea thing. Which is absolutely wrong. What I can't let go of, is our propensity to screw up our draft picks whether it's done by playing too much, playing in the wrong position, or expectations which don't justify the player's abilities, or salary. Whatever it is - and this goes for any of Toronto sport team's draft picks - one thing is always true .... they ain't here anymore.

                Quite a few fans believe Andrea was coddled too much (I'd be one of those), so why not try the opposite approach for one year. Bench him if his effort is not there. Or reduce his playing time. This won't reduce his value, as we've already done that with all this Bullshit going on. And besides, with BC's capacity to extract something out of nothing (Miami's pick - JJ, or Barbosa for Hedo), I'm sure he can convince some GM that we screwed up, and that Bargnani has talent.

                In some respects, Bargnani may represent why I've been reluctant to truly adopt Davis into the fold. I just have this deja vu that he'll be gone - whether it's because he becomes a top talent (and decides to flee the Titanic), or because he doesn't fill that expectation quota, we so love to have. I was a big fan of Bosh (not in his final year), as was so many others. Now we hate him. Such is the life of a Toronto fan.
                .

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                • #23
                  Tim W. wrote: View Post

                  Just because Amir may have more trade value, doesn't mean you trade him and keep the flawed player that is far more of a problem. What sense does that make?
                  I like Amir but, leaving the Bargs issue aside, it would depend on what you could get for him. I would prefer to see Davis/Amir/Centre X next year as the primary big rotation but if you get a starting 5 or 3 back for Amir I think you have to do that deal. I know that the metrics love Amir but it's pretty clear his ceiling is as a 3rd big and they have lots of holes to fill in that starting lineup.

                  On the Bargs issue, doing anything with the roster for the sake of Bargnani is insanity and it's pretty clear they won't be making moves to build around him. It's pretty clear that the stage has been set to trade him sooner rather than later.

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                  • #24
                    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                    It's really impossible to argue anything rational with you because you see absolutely no value in Bargnani. All I'm saying is that if you can trade a backup, redundant PF for an equally good player that could start for the team at another position, it makes sense, regardless as to whether or not they keep Bargnani.
                    You ever think that I'm the one who's thinking rationally? I'm not blinded by loyalty or empty scoring or potential. I look at the game objectively and reach conclusions based on what I see. If I see the same thing over and over and over again, it's pretty hard to ignore it. The people who want to try and figure out how to keep Bargnani aren't looking at the team objectively. Why would you try and keep a player when there is overwhelming evidence saying that he is not good for the team? Please tell me what sense this makes?

                    And my point is that neither Amir nor Davis are redundant. Not if you're trying to win. You keep the players that help you win and get rid of the players that don't.
                    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                    • #25
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

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                      • #26
                        Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
                        I admire your loyalty to Bargs but the suggestion to move Amir or even Ed is beyond comprehension. Move a potentially good frontcourt player in Ed on a rookie contract? Are you serious? Just to keep Andrea?
                        sounds like you're higher on amir than ed... are you?
                        If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                        Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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                        • #27
                          Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          You ever think that I'm the one who's thinking rationally? I'm not blinded by loyalty or empty scoring or potential. I look at the game objectively and reach conclusions based on what I see. If I see the same thing over and over and over again, it's pretty hard to ignore it. The people who want to try and figure out how to keep Bargnani aren't looking at the team objectively. Why would you try and keep a player when there is overwhelming evidence saying that he is not good for the team? Please tell me what sense this makes?

                          And my point is that neither Amir nor Davis are redundant. Not if you're trying to win. You keep the players that help you win and get rid of the players that don't.
                          yes, i love pointless rant arguments in forums.
                          If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                          Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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                          • #28
                            RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                            Stop wasting your time. Tim doesn't care about any solutions that involve Bargnani. Even if an ideal solution worked, he'd still find a reason to back his opinion.
                            Apparently your reading comprehension is about as good as your manners. You don't seem to get it. Why are you going to try and keep a player who doesn't help your team? There IS no ideal solution because Bargnani can't help your team win. He's too much of a liability half the time he's on the court.

                            RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                            Fact is, if Bargani is traded, and a defensive Centre is acquired (separately or not), then Davis could very well get 30-32 minutes, leaving Amir with 15 - 20 minutes per game. In this scenario, I can't see AJ being satisfied with his minutes going down - especially if Andrea is moved. As for both being on the Court together (in order to rectify Amir's drop in minutes), I just can't agree with them handling true Bigs together - at this time. If Davis increases in size and strength, it's possible, but now we have a big IF being thrown into the equation.
                            So did the same genie that you accused me of listening to tell you that Amir isn't going to be happy with 20 mpg? And you also probably need to do a little more math. With three bigs, you can have each player playing 32 mpg. That's more than Amir played last season. I have no idea where you are getting this 15-20 mpg.

                            As for neither Amir nor Davis being able to defend a true big center, that's what the center is for.

                            RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                            But let's say both increase their size and strength - how does Amir handle that change, considering his history with injuries. What effect would this have on AJ's quickness, and will he become even more foul prone. Suffice to say, that if Andrea is gone, BC (I hope its' him in charge) will look not just for a Starting Centre, but a back-up guy as well. And that means Johnson will be bound for somewhere else.
                            Amir's history of injuries? This is the FIRST season he's had ANY trouble with injuries. In fact he commented on that exact fact. Amir and Davis defended most of the best players this year, whether they were center or PF, so your point makes very little sense.


                            Here's some more of Tim's perspectives:[/QUOTE]

                            You have a problem with what I say. Say it to me. Don't be a dick and talk to someone else publicly about me. If you feel you can't keep up in an argument with me, which seems to be true, then talk about something else.

                            RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                            As for who to trade, you don't want to trade the guy [Amir] with the most trade value. [Tim W. ]
                            Wow. Nothing else to say on this type of statement.
                            Wow, way to take something out of context. Try reading the rest of the discussion where someone else brought up the possibility that Amir has more trade value, so you should trade him. I was simply continuing that possibility for the sake of the discussion. Again, I don't know if you did that purposely to be a dick, or whether you just don't read very well.

                            RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                            A Big who's really a Big, would demolish Amir. Or if not that, the constant banging would have him back on the injury list. Considering Johnson's ankle (an unknown at this time) and back problems, the risk is higher with AJ if we follow through with this scenario (Ed & Amir together). If Amir really is healthy, then why not move him now - regardless of whether you move Andrea - as his trade value is at a peak.
                            Amir has never had injury problems before, so there's absolutely no reason to think that he will continue to do so.

                            And I've never said that Amir would play all his minutes at center defending the starting center. Most likely, he'd be defending against backup players or the other team's PF. Neither one should play center full time, but it's not a stretch to say that both can play limited minutes as a backup center.

                            RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                            Let's see now. No Andrea. No Demar. But we'd have Davis & Johnson. Sure, our defense will be better, but our Offense will be not just horrible, but down right embarrassing.
                            Yes, because I'm proposing to trade those guys for nothing. Jesus christ, think about it for a second! What I don't want are scorers who can't play a lick of defense. Is this simply too hard a concept for you to understand? Do I need to repeat it for you to understand it?

                            Why do some people think that because some of us don't want Bargnani that we don't want anyone who can score? You know what we want? Someone who actually plays both f%$%ing ends of the court. That's what good players do. That's what players on contenders do.

                            RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                            And Tim knows this, because his Genie told him?
                            No, because I've followed the NBA long enough to realize that players get stronger as they get older. Both Amir and Davis are 23 and 21 respectively. Just use you f%^$ing head. The same one you apparently completely ignored when you wrote this post.

                            RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                            The irony of all this, is that it's not Bargnani who will impede Davis in his PF role - as it seems AB is on a short leash (here or gone) - but Amir who will affect it. And as such, AJ will eventually be moved.
                            And you know this because a Genie told you? Christ, this has got to be the least self aware comment I"ve seen in a while. I can certainly be arrogant sometimes, but at least I try not to be hypocritical. You blast me for one thing then turn around and do the same thing in THE EXACT SAME POST!!

                            RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
                            When it comes to playing time, I can't accept all this love and camaraderie that goes with being friends/buddies. Take the Derozan/Weems situation. I'm of the belief that Weems stunted Demar's progress in the first year, and that the best thing that could happen to DD, will be when Sonny has moved on.

                            With respect to Amir & Ed, this talk about not being a Contender (for some time), just seems to reinforce my perspective on player roles. Why keep 2 of the same players, when Raptor's needs are all across the board - Starting PG, Back-up SG, Starting SF, Centre.

                            Now Tim will say that I can't let go of the Andrea thing. Which is absolutely wrong. What I can't let go of, is our propensity to screw up our draft picks whether it's done by playing too much, playing in the wrong position, or expectations which don't justify the player's abilities, or salary. Whatever it is - and this goes for any of Toronto sport team's draft picks - one thing is always true .... they ain't here anymore.

                            Quite a few fans believe Andrea was coddled too much (I'd be one of those), so why not try the opposite approach for one year. Bench him if his effort is not there. Or reduce his playing time. This won't reduce his value, as we've already done that with all this Bullshit going on. And besides, with BC's capacity to extract something out of nothing (Miami's pick - JJ, or Barbosa for Hedo), I'm sure he can convince some GM that we screwed up, and that Bargnani has talent.

                            In some respects, Bargnani may represent why I've been reluctant to truly adopt Davis into the fold. I just have this deja vu that he'll be gone - whether it's because he becomes a top talent (and decides to flee the Titanic), or because he doesn't fill that expectation quota, we so love to have. I was a big fan of Bosh (not in his final year), as was so many others. Now we hate him. Such is the life of a Toronto fan.
                            .
                            You know, I've never had a problem with your posts before, but if you want to have a discussion with me, then have one. If you're afraid to, then don't do this bullshit thing of talking "about me". It's cowardly, insulting, and, quite frankly, ignorant as hell.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

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                            • #29
                              slaw wrote: View Post
                              I like Amir but, leaving the Bargs issue aside, it would depend on what you could get for him. I would prefer to see Davis/Amir/Centre X next year as the primary big rotation but if you get a starting 5 or 3 back for Amir I think you have to do that deal. I know that the metrics love Amir but it's pretty clear his ceiling is as a 3rd big and they have lots of holes to fill in that starting lineup.

                              On the Bargs issue, doing anything with the roster for the sake of Bargnani is insanity and it's pretty clear they won't be making moves to build around him. It's pretty clear that the stage has been set to trade him sooner rather than later.
                              However much I like Amir, if it truly makes the team better, then you do the deal. My problem is that you don't deal Amir and keep Bargnani, because that doesn't make the team better.
                              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                              Follow me on Twitter.

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                              • #30
                                I think that you can keep bargnani, amir and davis, you dont have to necessarily trade one of them, give them each like 25 min. and play davis at C off the bench at times. Next year is a good year for free agent bigs (nene,chandler,gasol) we can get a C through free agency. Injuries happen every year, if we have a rotation of 4 solid bigs (bargnani, amir, davis, and new C) chances are one of them will get hurt sometime during the season, depth is important. If we can defend at the point of attack, which I think Bayless can do better than calderon, and we anchor our defense at the back end with a 10 and 10, shot blocking C, I think that it will address a lot of our defensive problems. Moving bargnani to the PF is our best option atm, in my opinion.

                                Who we really need to trade is calderon, his contract is hefty, his defense is poor, and Bayless needs to start.
                                "Defense wins championships."

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