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From RR Homepage: Cap Flexibility Must Be Why "98% of Raptors Fans LOVE Colangelo"

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  • Raptor4Ever
    replied
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Issues refused to discuss:

    1) Cap number wrong

    2) Would you rather have 1 year at $7.6M guaranteed or look at multi years and possibily upwards of $15M or more of guaranteed money as a 29 year old at the start of next year, 8 year pro who relies on speed as a major part of his game?

    3) Other players have left money on the table for more guaranteed money.

    4) Jose or Bargnani could be traded - no one on a 22 win team, as you routinely bring up, should be safe.

    5) Imagined statistics passed as fact.

    6) The fact the Raps have less money committed to players than 75% of the other teams in the league.
    When you came back to reality and stop dreaming about unicorns, I will have a logical discussion with you but till then, read the below, learn a few things and maybe and just maybe start to think about reality and write something with little substance:

    http://raptorsrepublic.com/2011/04/2...ove-colangelo/

    Best of Luck Pal

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    LOOOL, refuse to discuss !! What is to discuss !! your fairy tales and highly unlikely scenarios !! To get a dose of REALITY, Read the article on the front page by REAL knowledgeable Raptor fan.

    That should answer all your questions. If we decide to discuss your scenarios then we might as well discuss the trade for Lebron with that 21.5 million because to me, they all have the same chance of occurring.
    Issues refused to discuss:

    1) Cap number wrong

    2) Would you rather have 1 year at $7.6M guaranteed or look at multi years and possibily upwards of $15M or more of guaranteed money as a 29 year old at the start of next year, 8 year pro who relies on speed as a major part of his game?

    3) Other players have left money on the table for more guaranteed money.

    4) Jose or Bargnani could be traded - no one on a 22 win team, as you routinely bring up, should be safe.

    5) Imagined statistics passed as fact.

    6) The fact the Raps have less money committed to players than 75% of the other teams in the league.

    Leave a comment:


  • Raptor4Ever
    replied
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    To recap my points which you have refused to discuss directly:
    LOOOL, refuse to discuss !! What is to discuss !! your fairy tales and highly unlikely scenarios !! To get a dose of REALITY, Read the article on the front page by REAL knowledgeable Raptor fan.

    That should answer all your questions. If we decide to discuss your scenarios then we might as well discuss the trade for Lebron with that 21.5 million because to me, they all have the same chance of occurring.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    I am not disagreeing with you. Everything is possible in this league and in the world but given the state of the league this year and with the new CBA and new cost cuttings and ... both of the aboves are much less likely to happen. That is all I am saying so this makes the article on the front page a more realistic scenario of what is going on in the Raptor land than the picture Matt paints here.
    To recap my points which you have refused to discuss directly:

    1) The salary cap number for the Raps next year is $45M not $47M already questioning the findings of the article on homepage - Arse even made comment for people to correct him if anything was incorrect:
    Did a screw up somewhere in the last two paragraphs? I’m sure you’ll tell me if I did.

    Read more: http://raptorsrepublic.com/2011/04/2...#ixzz1KD8Z9TzL
    2) There is a possibility Barbosa could opt out

    3) There is a possibility Bargnani could be traded and if so his BYC would only allow 50% of his 2010-2011 salary to come back

    4) 2 and 3 create a scenario where $21.5M could be available

    5) As already noted, both 2 and 3 are hypothetical - but possible. Likely? Maybe. Maybe not. But there are many more outcomes than what Arse has proposed. Arse's proposal assumes no changes between now and June 30th except the draft pick - I do not think this to be likely but that is just my opinion.

    6) 5% probabilities were numbers made up by you - they have no basis or credibility. CLE having a 25% chance to win the lottery is a fact based probability. Once again presenting opinion as fact discredits your post.

    7) The Raptors having a better financial situation than 3/4's of the league is also a fact based statement, arguably more if you were to break down each roster - $22M to Lewis in WSH pops to mind.

    8) The picture Matt painted was the flip side of the coin. It is no secret Arse is not a fan of bringing back Colangelo - and that is fine. The difference between Arse's point of view and your own is Arse usually backs up his opinions with a foundation of reason and logic. There are 3 sides to every story: Arse's, mine, and the truth - the truth is usually, as in this case, somewhere in the middle.

    Leave a comment:


  • Raptor4Ever
    replied
    MangoKid wrote: View Post
    Could Bargnani be traded before July 1? Absolutely. Anyone can get dealt at any given time. However, in my opinion, I believe that it's more unlikely because he's still on a BYC and he has a reasonable contract. We'd be getting 60 cents to the dollar in terms of his value.

    Could Barbosa turn down 8 million? Sure. Richard Jefferson left over 14 million on the table last season to sign something long term, so it's very possible he goes the same route.
    I am not disagreeing with you. Everything is possible in this league and in the world but given the state of the league this year and with the new CBA and new cost cuttings and ... both of the aboves are much less likely to happen. That is all I am saying so this makes the article on the front page a more realistic scenario of what is going on in the Raptor land than the picture Matt paints here.

    Leave a comment:


  • MangoKid
    replied
    Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    What pessimism !! Just because I echo the reality that was pointed out by ONE of the BEST Writers of this site then I am a pessimist !! The real data is there in the front page for everyone to look and think about.

    You are buy what Matt is cooking and I am entitled to point out the scenarios that Matt is describing HOW UNLIKELY they are !!!

    Anything can happen fro NOW till the start of the next season BUT some stuff are more likely to happen than Others. I said it earlier, that the chance that AB is traded before July 1st or Barbosa says NO to 8 million on the table on the eve of the lock down is less than 5%.

    Matt decided to disagree and ASK him to put his MONEY where his mouth is. However, he does not have ANY CONFIDENT on what he writes because He knows that they are all his fantasy.

    That is fine as well and I give him little dream subject about Howard, Griffen and the 21.5 million ( I mean seriously, how ridiculous that number is , going from 4.7 to 21.5 ) that can get him Lebron.

    Anyway, enough time wasted on this UNREALISTIC scenario that is proposed by MATT.
    Like I've said before, why should be take on the terms of your bet? That's foolish. You want to do an avatar bet with him, go right ahead, but not posting until after the all-star break? That's a bit ambitious.

    Could Bargnani be traded before July 1? Absolutely. Anyone can get dealt at any given time. However, in my opinion, I believe that it's more unlikely because he's still on a BYC and he has a reasonable contract. We'd be getting 60 cents to the dollar in terms of his value.

    Could Barbosa turn down 8 million? Sure. Richard Jefferson left over 14 million on the table last season to sign something long term, so it's very possible he goes the same route.

    Leave a comment:


  • Raptor4Ever
    replied
    MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I gotta ask: what's the point of being pessimistic?

    .
    What pessimism !! Just because I echo the reality that was pointed out by ONE of the BEST Writers of this site then I am a pessimist !! The real data is there in the front page for everyone to look and think about.

    You are welcome to buy what Matt is selling and I am entitled to point out HOW UNLIKELY are the scenarios that Matt is proposing !!! Just because the guy does alot for the site , it does not allow him to come out and post Rubbish like this and expect us to buy it !!! This site deserves better than this. This site deserve conversation about real topics. This thread and scenarios is as unlikely to happen as a straight trade of Evans for Howard !! you want to disscuss such a trade with Matt, be my guest but don't get upset if some of us raise objection to such a childish topics. At the end, this is what freedom of speech is all about.

    Anything can happen fro NOW till the start of the next season BUT some stuff are more likely to happen than Others. I said it earlier, that the chance that AB is traded before July 1st or Barbosa says NO to 8 million on the table on the eve of the lock down is less than 5%.

    Matt decided to disagree and ASK him to put his MONEY where his mouth is. However, he does not have ANY CONFIDENT on what he writes because He knows that they are all his fantasy.

    That is fine as well and I give him little dream subject about Howard, Griffen and the 21.5 million ( I mean seriously, how ridiculous that number is , going from 4.7 to 21.5 ) that can get him Lebron.

    Anyway, enough time wasted on this UNREALISTIC scenario that is proposed by MATT.
    Last edited by Raptor4Ever; Thu Apr 21, 2011, 09:50 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • MangoKid
    replied
    Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Just as I thought. You know how unlikely is what you suggest and hence can not even stand behind it

    It is Ok pal.

    I leave you alone with your fantasies and let you swim deeper in them. Heck, I do you one better.

    It is possible, that we might be able to get Howard in this off-season. Also, since Griffin and Davis are both rookies, then we might be even able to do a trade for these guys. With that 21.5 million in the Cap Space, we can get Lebron James.

    So here it is for you Pal, little more food for your creative mind. Future is as Rosy as it has ever been.
    I gotta ask: what's the point of being pessimistic?

    Secondly, why should Matt accept your proposal? He's a well-respected poster and moderator on this site and he has responsibilities that go along with it, so him not posting until after the all-star break is not an option. He does quite a lot for this site in terms of discussion and keeping the order here, and for that, we are in his debt.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    slaw wrote: View Post
    I didn't really get the post on the homepage given the CBA uncertainty. No one knows what the world will look like next year. I think Matt's point is a good one, namely, regardless of whatever the new CBA requires, the Raptors are in decent shape compared to everyone else.
    I'm glad you got the point as well, slaw.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    As far as I can tell, Arse & Matt have done good jobs laying out the various salary cap SCENARIOS. Neither of them have sworn undying allegiances to one scenario or another...
    I'm glad you got the point, CRF.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Just as I thought. You know how unlikely is what you suggest and hence can not even stand behind it

    It is Ok pal.

    I leave you alone with your fantasies and let you swim deeper in them. Heck, I do you one better.

    It is possible, that we might be able to get Howard in this off-season. Also, since Griffin and Davis are both rookies, then we might be even able to do a trade for these guys. With that 21.5 million in the Cap Space, we can get Lebron James.

    So here it is for you Pal, little more food for your creative mind. Future is as Rosy as it has ever been.
    The very fact you choose to ignore what I initially said

    This is all hypothetical, of course, but I think the picture is rosier than depicted in Arse's post.
    regarding the Bargnani and Barbosa situations shows a hostility which is not healthy or normal for a rational adult. The very fact the cap number appears to be incorrect already justifies the claim that the picture is rosier than depicted in Arse's post. The very fact you are attempting to argue the reality the Raps are in a better financial situation than 3/4's of the league shows a contempt and bias towards Colangelo that immediately nullifies any rational argument.


    The very fact the only thing you replied to in this post was the bolded section:

    Here is reality:

    1) I said all scenarios were hypothetical. They may or may not happen, the point is no one knows what the new CBA landscape will look like. What we do know is that TOR has $37.4M tied up in 9 players, they may have $45 tied up in 10 if Barbosa opts in, and this leaves them with less salary that 23 of the 30 teams in the league but does not take in to consideration any other possible trade that could add or subtract money from their payroll between now and June 30th.
    2) Barbosa said he was not sure if he would pick up his option. Diaw was one player who said he would. I would take things at face value. Barbosa could have an opportunity for a multi-year deal worth more money - maybe less per year but it would be more guaranteed money which he may consider more valuable at this stage of his career (28 years old). The reality is you have no idea what Barbosa will do - nor do I.
    3) Barbosa says no to $7.6M less than 5% chance? Bargnani traded less than 5% chance? Says who? Seriously, you're better than this.
    4) What Arse wrote on the front page was one perspective based on facts that were not 100% accurate. This is another that very well could have a mistake somewhere in it. Your's would be a third, but wait, you didn't reply with anything of substance - just examples of: 1) university aged girls shopping that totally brought in to question reading comprehension skills given the word hypothetical was clearly used after all these scenarios were give and 2) obscure guessing at probabilities and percentages.
    5) It very much does matter what the rest of the league looks like because if a hard cap comes in (which is one of the major things the owners with all the leverage are pushing). If this comes to pass, there will only be 6 teams with more money to spend than the Raptors. Keep in mind the owners, with all the leverage, originally tabled a proposal looking for a salary cap reduction to $45M.

    Objectivity and an open mind are very useful qualities when discussing situation and scenarios - especially situations and scenarios that are to be determined. One thing I've noticed in your posts is objectivity and an open mind are very often lacking. In the words of C&C Music Factory: "Free your mind and the rest will follow." While I am a person of strong conviction, I do listen to reason but looking at your reply, once again, there is very little reason or concrete facts offered to make me question my opinions. Arguments with a foundation of hindsight and personal opinions and emotions do very little to make a compelling counter-argument.
    shows the quality of input you have on discussion here. It is also a clear indication of what little discussion you are interested in having on these boards.


    The very fact you choose to follow this up with a bet to post or not post shows another classic case of changing subjects when the facts or realities do not suport your view - especially considering it was to refute a claim that a trade which the majority of RR members who voted think could actually happen or a player deciding to take a chance at more years and guaranteed money was an impossibility (as an aside - if you had an opportunity to take a contract for 1 year at $7.6M or a multi-year contract at $15+M which would you choose? Personally, I'd explore more guaranteed money - especially 8 years in to my career).

    The very fact you wrote this:

    The Chances that what he wrote here and we having more than 4.7 million is less than 5%. Hence I challenge him to this bet.
    without looking at reputable NBA salary sites which clearly show the starting point for the proposed money to spend on free agents is flawed shows a bias that is sad and unfortunate for a reputable Raptors discussion forum. The reality is what I wrote is 100% correct and your 5% claims are, well, poppy-cock much like most comments here.


    The fact you follow up plausible scenarios of Bargnani being traded or Barbosa opting out with ridiculous scenarios of trading for Howard, Griffin, or James shows once again that when sensible arguments are made, you turtle, change subjects, attempt to coerce personal arguments, and/or leave the thread abruptly claiming victory.


    The reality of this whole thread is you have not made one substantiated claim or logical opinion based on fact. The reality is someone offers a rational view different than your own and you go on the attack at a personal level. The reality is nothing you have wrote disproves or discredits any claim or comment Raptor-related this evening.

    It is time to shape up or ship out.

    Leave a comment:


  • Raptor4Ever
    replied
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    ........................
    Just as I thought. You know how unlikely is what you suggest and hence can not even stand behind it

    It is Ok pal.

    I leave you alone with your fantasies and let you swim deeper in them. Heck, I do you one better.

    It is possible, that we might be able to get Howard in this off-season. Also, since Griffin and Davis are both rookies, then we might be even able to do a trade for these guys. With that 21.5 million in the Cap Space, we can get Lebron James.

    So here it is for you Pal, little more food for your creative mind. Future is as Rosy as it has ever been.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcHAPPY
    replied
    Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Says anyone who has little logic and knows little about the game. you are not presenting reality in this thread. Reality and great writting was presented by Arsenalist on the front page when he presented 4.7 million dollar number.

    How about we make this interesting ?

    1) If AB is traded by July 1st, then I will NOT post here till beginning of the season, if NOT, then you should not make even one post here for that duration

    2) If Barbosa opts out of his 8 million dollar contract, then I will NOT post here till after ALL-STAR Break next year and if he did not opt out, then you do not post here till ALL-STAR Break !!

    How about it, Are you man enough, believe enough on what you say and what you write, to make these bets ?
    Little logic and knows little about the game? Five realities were just given to you and you come back with this. As usual you skirt the issues, with me and others, only to take conversations in different directions because you cannot back up your claims or opinions.

    Here is another reality: you like Arse's post because it suits your view - which is fine. However, given there seems to be much more support on the forum for keeping Colangelo than alternatives and the number of reporters in the local and national media who have written well thought out pieces to keep him, nice work cherry picking the 'reality'. Arse's original starting point ($47M) was flawed and most certainly does not take in to consideration the state of the league.

    There is no logic or knowledge required for your proposal. I do not wish to see you stop posting here. You have some decent comments when you temper the negativity and refrain from insulting others. I'm not opposed to differing views, which you seem to be. My objections arise when facts do not back up claims or when opinions are presented as facts.

    The fact remains Bargnani could be traded or he could not; Barbosa may opt in or opt out. What does picking one scenario prove? I'm sorry but this is not professional wrestling and this is not a retirement match. The bolded red section takes your contribution to RR to a new low. This forum is not about me, or you, or Arse, or Apollo, or whoever - this is about the Raptors. Discuss the Raptors within the forum's guidelines or move on.

    Leave a comment:


  • CalgaryRapsFan
    replied
    Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    All I am saying is that what Matt writes is SO FAR from REALITY that it is not even worth mentioning and has no substance.
    The Chances that what he wrote here and we having more than 4.7 million is less than 5%. Hence I challenge him to this bet.

    If he really believes that what he is writing is a likely scenario , then he should take it. But I know he does not and THERE IS NO WAY he will accept the bet.

    At some point of time , as fans we have to start to look at the reality and see where this team is going and what is really happening. Enough of these positive Spins on Reality and Enough Day Dreaming. We are better than this fairy tales and teenage girl dream posts.

    What was represented on the FRONT PAGE, was a dosage of reality for 98% of Raptor fans. Read it, appreciate it and think about.
    My last comment about this.

    The scenario discussed was reality. Whether or not that reality comes to fruition is another discussion.

    Barbosa - He is the only unknown on the roster and is the only guy who's fate isn't controlled by management, so it does make sense to look at what the salary cap situation would be like both ways

    Bargnani - Ever since he was called an "asset" by BC, there has been rampant speculation about his future on the team. Matt was just reminding people that IF Bargnani were to be traded before July 1st, his entire salary couldn't be returned in a trade due to the fact that he is a BYC player. As the player most discussed as a tradeable "asset" this week, it's good to know the true salary cap impact both if he stays and if he does get traded, before and after the July 1st deadline. Once the salary cap facts are out there, it opens the door to more meaningful discussion about those various possibilities.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Apr 21, 2011, 06:31 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Raptor4Ever
    replied
    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't read anywhere that Matt said he 100% believed those things. He was simply outlining the financial alternatives IF one/both of those things happened.
    All I am saying is that what Matt writes is SO FAR from REALITY that it is not even worth mentioning and has no substance.
    The Chances that what he wrote here and we having more than 4.7 million is less than 5%. Hence I challenge him to this bet.

    If he really believes that what he is writing is a likely scenario , then he should take it. But I know he does not and THERE IS NO WAY he will accept the bet.

    At some point of time , as fans we have to start to look at the reality and see where this team is going and what is really happening. Enough of these positive Spins on Reality and Enough Day Dreaming. We are better than this fairy tales and teenage girl dream posts.

    What was represented on the FRONT PAGE, was a dosage of reality for 98% of Raptor fans. Read it, appreciate it and think about.

    Leave a comment:

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