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Chad Ford Mock Draft 1.0: Raptors select Enes Kanter (Enes v Jonas starts post #139)

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  • grindhouse wrote: View Post
    if we are making comparisons I see

    derrick williams as Corliss Williamson
    enes kanter as Timofey Mozgov
    kyrie irving as tru holiday
    kenneth faried as ben wallace
    kemba as brevin knight
    terrence jones as jamal mashburn
    reggie jackson as part Chauncey Billups part rafer alston
    Kanter as Mozgov? Seriously?

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    • grindhouse wrote: View Post
      if we are making comparisons I see

      derrick williams as Corliss Williamson
      enes kanter as Timofey Mozgov
      kyrie irving as tru holiday
      kenneth faried as ben wallace
      kemba as brevin knight
      terrence jones as jamal mashburn
      reggie jackson as part Chauncey Billups part rafer alston
      I don't see any of that. AT all.

      Corliss was never the scorer that Williams was, and was not nearly the athlete.

      I don't get the Mozgov comparison, other than they are both white and European. Mozgov is limited offensively. Kanter is has range out to the 3 point line.

      Irving is a true PG who is great at running an offense. My big question with Holiday coming out was whether he was a true PG.

      If Faried is Ben Wallace, he should be a lot higher.

      Kemba is one of the best scorers in the NCAA, but might be a little shot happy. Brevin Knight was a pass first PG.

      Jones isn't even in this draft, and would be if anyone was comparing him to Mashburn.

      I still can't get over that ANYONE would be part Chauncey Billups and Rafer Alston, two players who couldn't be more different.
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      • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
        But people were saying the thing about Ty Lawson. And look at what he's doing in Denver.

        He is listed at 5'-11" on the UNC webpage. Also listed at 5'-11" on NBA.com.
        Kemba is listed at 6-1 on UConns page. Most places have him at 6' or 6'-1".

        He put up more Points and grabbed more boards than Ty Lawson as a Junior, while basically putting up the same Assist numbers as Sophomores. As a Junior, where he still averaged a respectable 4.5apg (to Ty's 6.6apg) was asked to do the majority of the offensive lifting, while still running the offence.

        I don't think his height is going to be an issue. At all. These guys have learned to adjust because of being slightly shorter (Kemba isn't THAT short) their entire lives. If he can be THAT dynamic for a Championship team, I think he will be more than alright in the NBA.

        ADD I don't think the words 'dynamic' or 'explosive' were EVER used to describe Knights game. haha Kemba is all kinds of dynamite.

        ADD Ty Lawson UNC Stats Page

        Kemba Walker UConn Stats page.


        Whoa.. forgot this was an Enes Kanter thread... my bad. haha
        I don't think Lawson is a good comparison, not to mention just because one person translated well doesn't mean everyone will. The only real similarity is they're both considered "small". Since you're looking at numbers, do notice that while Lawson did score less (26.6 pp48, vs Walker's 30.0 pp48), he was so much more efficient it isn't even close (.532 vs .428 fg%) And those assist numbers are more far off than you state. Their assist numbers are "similar" for their sophomore years, except that Lawson was playing 10 fewer minutes per game. As juniors, Lawson was posting 10.53 assists per 48 minutes. Walker only had 5.72 assists per 48 minutes. I think Bobby Jackson would have been a much better comparison.

        Also, adjusting for their height in college play is not the same as adjusting to the NBA. Everyone, not only undersized players, have to adjust to the NBA and not everyone succeeds. NBAers are simply bigger, faster and stronger. Not to mention Lawson was picked 18th to offset the risk. #3 (assuming that's our pick) might be too high to gamble on Walker being one of the few special undersized guards. #3 is too high for a team sorely needing to add cornerstones and not solid players who only start for bad teams and would come off the bench for a good one (a la Bobby Jackson).

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        • How good could Jonas Valanciunas be?

          I am really high on Jonas Valancuinas. I have always favored players that had attributes that you couldn't teach. Jonas is prime example of that. You can't teach length and Jonas has a lot of it. 6'11" with out shoes will most like measure around 7'1" in shoes and has a huge wingspan projected to be 7'6" and his only 19 men usually stop growing when their 21.

          I know a lot of you are on the Enes Kanter bandwagon but, when I look at him all I see is offense. I think we already have enough of that. We really need to start changing the culture in Toronto. That start with the players we draft. I don't have problem with drafting a player with offensive potential but, they have to have defensive potential too. I just don't see that with Kanter.

          With Jonas Valanciunas I see both! I see him possibly being a cross between Pau Gasol and Andris Biedrins at his best. I'm going to just stick with the defense though. Andrew Bogut, Serge Ibaka, Dwight Howard, JaVale McGee and Darko were all top 5 in blocked shots. What do they all have in common? They all have a wingspan higher than 7'2". I feel that Jonas has the potential to be top 5 in blocks but, still get you buckets.

          @Chr1st1anL

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          • Blocks alone isn't an indicator of a good defensive center. Also, while we're looking at wingspans, here's a bunch of wingspan freaks that should be taken into account as well:

            Saer Sene, 7'8.5"
            Michael Olowokandi, 7'8"
            Hassan Whiteside, 7'7"
            Eddy Curry, 7'6.5"
            DeSagana Diop, 7'6.5"
            Hasheem Thabeet, 7'6.25"
            Patrick O'Bryant, 7'5.75"
            Loren Woods, 7'5.5"
            Solomon Alabi, 7'5"

            Actually, looking at the list of top wingspans, it seemed there were a lot more nobodies than stars. Valanciunas' 7'6" wingspan is self-reported anyway. Until he gets measured, we won't know if he's closer to 7'4" or 7'6".

            Just as you don't see defensive potential for Kanter (not that there's much of anything to go on in the first place), I just don't see Valanciunas being more than a role player on offense realistically speaking. Maybe it's just me, but I find it amusing that these highlight reels of his don't really show any offensive ability beyond tip-ins, putbacks, alley-oops and dunks off of blown defensive plays. At most, he gets the ball, dribbles once and dunks. Just as I'm not big on watching videos of a prospect's made 3s, these dunks don't show much except that he can dunk when left wide open. Surely you don't need to spend a top 3 pick on that. He also doesn't rebound that well for someone with that great a wingspan. Not saying he's a bad rebounder, but he's not great for his size. I see him topping out at 7/8 rebounds per game.

            Just to balance out the highlights mix, here's a breakdown of what is probably one of his poorer performances.

            Last edited by Quixotic; Fri May 13, 2011, 05:16 AM. Reason: Added video

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            • Remember this guy?

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              • I was and still am high on Valanciunas. I do think he has a higher upside than Kanter but I also think he is a much larger gamble.

                The Raptors cannot afford a decent player to not come from this pick. At number 2 or 3 I would not be opposed to Kanter in the least.

                Also, shot blockers make highlights and are definitely exciting, however, they do not necessarily make good defenders. Plus Kanter, outside of wingspan, currently has the body and polish we hope Valanciunas eventually develops.

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                • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  I was and still am high on Valanciunas. I do think he has a higher upside than Kanter but I also think he is a much larger gamble.

                  The Raptors cannot afford a decent player to not come from this pick. At number 2 or 3 I would not be opposed to Kanter in the least.

                  Also, shot blockers make highlights and are definitely exciting, however, they do not necessarily make good defenders. Plus Kanter, outside of wingspan, currently has the body and polish we hope Valanciunas eventually develops.
                  I think Valanciunas becomes less of a gamble when you realize his skill set could easily translate into a succesful nba career: good help defense, pick and roll is his bread and butter, good at cleaning up messy plays, good motor, quick off his feet. That being said I think Kanter compliments Ed Davis much better, Valanciunas WILL probably develop into the better player though.

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                  • Shot blocking alone in a vacuum is overrated. Does the blocker/team get possession, does he change opponents' shots by being a presence in the paint or is he just getting the blocks off his man-to-man defense. I think Kanter is a much more rounded player and I hear has the intangibles of aggressiveness & leadership...items I dont know about Jonas but something the Raps need desperately.

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                    • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                      I am really high on Jonas Valancuinas. I have always favored players that had attributes that you couldn't teach. Jonas is prime example of that. You can't teach length and Jonas has a lot of it. 6'11" with out shoes will most like measure around 7'1" in shoes and has a huge wingspan projected to be 7'6" and his only 19 men usually stop growing when their 21.

                      I know a lot of you are on the Enes Kanter bandwagon but, when I look at him all I see is offense. I think we already have enough of that. We really need to start changing the culture in Toronto. That start with the players we draft. I don't have problem with drafting a player with offensive potential but, they have to have defensive potential too. I just don't see that with Kanter.

                      With Jonas Valanciunas I see both! I see him possibly being a cross between Pau Gasol and Andris Biedrins at his best. I'm going to just stick with the defense though. Andrew Bogut, Serge Ibaka, Dwight Howard, JaVale McGee and Darko were all top 5 in blocked shots. What do they all have in common? They all have a wingspan higher than 7'2". I feel that Jonas has the potential to be top 5 in blocks but, still get you buckets.



                      The most impressive part of the video is of him running up the court at the 6:27 mark.

                      Comment


                      • If anyone thinks Amir is foul prone, let me introduce you to Jonas Valancuinas. He makes Amir look like Wilt Chamberlain (who never fouled out of a game). Now, I certainly like his strengths, and wouldn't be upset if the Raptors drafted him, but I see far, far more in Kanter. Kanter isn't the shotblocker that Valancuinas is, but the Raptors already have Davis on the team, so what they need more is a great positional defender. Kanter's offense gets top billing, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with his defense, from what I've seen and read. There seems to be this belief that a big man has to be a shotblocker to be a good defender and that's simply not true. Think Anderson Varejao. What matters most is effort and IQ, and Kanter has both of those.
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                        • He also doesn't rebound that well for someone with that great a wingspan. Not saying he's a bad rebounder, but he's not great for his size. I see him topping out at 7/8 rebounds per game.

                          The largest portion of his offense (27%) comes from this area according to Synergy Sports Technology, a testament to his length, quickness, timing, hands, activity level and instincts. He pulls down over five offensive rebounds for every 40 minutes he's on the floor, and watching him play, it's not difficult to tell why.

                          From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...#ixzz1MFmitIKZ
                          http://www.draftexpress.com

                          sounds like a pretty good rebounder to be.

                          I wasn't stating that his length and shot blocking was his only tool as a defender. His real mobile for a 7 footer and has way better lateral quickness than Kanter and his a great rebounder. I think at worse he could be a Joackim Noah(with a better shot) and a player like that can benefit the raptors way more than another score-first player.
                          @Chr1st1anL

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                          • 2008 U-16 Euro Champship: Kanter

                            A cadet topping the rebounding ranking in a European junior championship isn't the most common thing seen in basketball. Actually, I'm not even sure it has ever happened. Enes Kanter did it.

                            Showing comparable strength to a junior -if not superior- in his 6-9 body, Kanter is not about jumping out of the gym. The kid shows decent athleticism, but his leaping ability is not top notch. On the contrary, he relies on his superb positioning, willingness to pursue the ball on both ends of the court, and excellent timing. Kanter uses both arms, and isn't scared to leave the ground even in horizontal moves (many players fear for their ankles in these situations), so his rebounding range is pretty good. He also enjoys terrific hands to grab the ball, and the poise to know when to make every effort. The only downside we see in his rebounding display is the fact that he's not much about boxing out opponents, as much as he is about going out and grabbing the rebound, which isn't necessarily the best option team-wise.

                            Averaging 14.6 captures per game, Kanter surpassed the 20-rebound mark on three separate occasions, and earned himself a place on the all-tournament team, despite the fact that Turkey finished ninth in the championship.

                            Moving to his offensive game, he's mostly an off-the-ball guy. He produces near the basket out of dishes from his teammates, showing great poise to finish under the rim against tall opponents, and of course, off offensive rebounds. He's also rather active setting picks, but rarely produces after rolling inside (a move he doesn't execute with enough faith). But you can also see him playing in the low post, being aggressive and physical, often pounding his opponent with his left shoulder to look for a right-handed hook or a pivot move to get by his match-up. In very rare occasions you will witness Kanter putting the ball on the floor at this stage; anyway, he usually uses his right hand, but shows average results. He can also attempt a jump-shot with decent range (he even connected on a three-pointer during the championship) but still with mixed results. Defensively, he's not a great intimidator, but shows decent lateral mobility and positioning to stay between the ball and the basket.

                            We still don't see out-of-this-world potential in Kanter, but given his youth, it's better to be cautious about his future. For the moment, the guy looks like the early favorite to clinch MVP honors in the upcoming U-16 European Championship (as long as Turkey stays competitive). By the way, regarding the real birthdate of Kanter-- a subject of controversy considering that he looks mature way beyond his age-- someone pointed to me his place of birth: it has to be pretty difficult to play with your birthdate in Zurich, Switzerland.

                            From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/article/...#ixzz1MFzmQXmX
                            http://www.draftexpress.com
                            I realize this is 3 years old now but I hope it shows a point - which is:

                            Kanter has dominated where ever and when ever he played. He was a top player in the U-18's at 16 years of age - 14.6 rebs a game versus guys 2 years older? Seriously? And 6'9" at the time.

                            No, this is not against NBA competition but no kid 16,17, or 18 is playing against NBA competition. Every draft prospects stats are compared against his peers at the level they play.

                            With Davis and Amir capable of in the role of leaping shot blockers and athletic big men, in my opinion, the Raptors could use a hard-nosed positional defender who, at 19 next week, is already physically ready for the NBA.

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                            • Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
                              He also doesn't rebound that well for someone with that great a wingspan. Not saying he's a bad rebounder, but he's not great for his size. I see him topping out at 7/8 rebounds per game.

                              The largest portion of his offense (27%) comes from this area according to Synergy Sports Technology, a testament to his length, quickness, timing, hands, activity level and instincts. He pulls down over five offensive rebounds for every 40 minutes he's on the floor, and watching him play, it's not difficult to tell why.

                              From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...#ixzz1MFmitIKZ
                              http://www.draftexpress.com

                              sounds like a pretty good rebounder to be.

                              I wasn't stating that his length and shot blocking was his only tool as a defender. His real mobile for a 7 footer and has way better lateral quickness than Kanter and his a great rebounder. I think at worse he could be a Joackim Noah(with a better shot) and a player like that can benefit the raptors way more than another score-first player.
                              I see a couple of problems with Valanciunas on the Raptors. The first is that he duplicates what the Raptors already have in Amir and Davis. All are slight big men who are active and are better offensive rebounders than defensive rebounders (especially Amir). None are much of a threat to score much and none are great post defenders.

                              And most likely Bargnani is gone this summer, so about the only score first player on the roster is DeRozan. Kanter is a better defensive rebounder than Valanciunas, a better post defender and a much better compliment to Davis and Amir. Plus, I just think he's going to be a better player. The only thing that Valanciunas is better than Kanter at is shot blocking, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a better defender. In fact, I haven't been too impressed with Valanciunas defensive IQ. I don't think it's bad, but for a guy who is supposed to be a great help defender, it should be better.
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                              • Read that Draft Express page...Yikes, Valanciunas fouls a lot...wow. In Euroleague...where the game is WAY MORE physical. I'm sure he has potential, but that can't be good. I won't point out that a lot of his "blocks" would be fouls in the NBA either. He has developed fairly quickly so you have to like his upside and potential to improve but the Raps can't wait on another big to develop, we already have Solo...we need a big who is a little closer. If we do it through the draft and our choices are only Valancius or Kanter I guess Kanter is a better choice now.

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