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  • #91
    MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
    Exactly. A good move for Kanter, not such a great move for the NBA or the draft process. This move only serves one interest. ( I am also not so sold on players deciding what team fits them... and get disturbed by players of any calibre trying to circumvent the draft process)

    (...and the whole its his agent defence does not do anything for me; get a new agent.)
    Why would any prospective player or agent care about the draft process? I have no problem at all with players trying to get into a situation that is best for them. The first interest is to themselves. They want to get into a situation that will give them the best chance to succeed. Far too many people are taking this personally when it's not only human nature, we ALL do this sort of thing. We try and put ourselves in the situation that will give us the best chance to succeed.
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    • #92
      Just to add, countless players fail or don't reach their potential because of team situations that are out of their control. You don't think Darko Milicic would have liked to have been drafted by a team that would have played him? He just may have lost out on millions of dollars and a better NBA career because he was drafted by the Pistons instead of the Nuggets.
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      • #93
        I guess to each their own.


        I dislike agents and players that block certain teams from drafting them. I feel that humility is important for a rookie. I am more of a fan of the game than a specific player, so Kanter's move does nothing for me other than brew my discontent.
        Last edited by MyMomLovesMe; Sun May 22, 2011, 03:31 PM.

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        • #94
          RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
          *Typo error* ..... with Amir down (as in injured).
          .
          Colangelo says Amir will be ready for the start of training camp.

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          • #95
            MyMomLovesMe wrote: View Post
            I guess to each their own.


            I dislike agents and players that block certain teams from drafting them. I feel that humility is important for a rookie. I am more of a fan of the game than a specific player, so Kanter's move does nothing for me other than brew my discontent.
            In a perfect world, players and agents wouldn't do that. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. I want the best player available, not the most humble player. It would be nice if they were the same, but they're usually not.
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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            • #96
              [QUOTE=Maleko;84010]
              GarbageTime wrote: View Post
              Again you are ONLY considering attendance (which by the way Washinton's attendance exceed Toronto's 5 times in 10 years which goes to show that it is a pretty even split but within a smaller population) and the "value" of a team is not directly related to that teams market (but they may consider it as part of the value depending on how one values the team)

              Did you even read the post? How did I only talk about attendance? Just to note sure they had higher attendance but in some of those yrs it was 40 or so more as opposed to 1000-4000. Regardless, I added that after pointing out the revenues and profits and FACTS. If the other basketball related items are so great they are not translated into $.
              These are facts not conjecture as you continue to repeat.
              Indeed facts.

              Fact - the world revolves around the sun. Therefore Toronto is a larger market than Washington. Is that how this works, you prevent a fact and therefore its proof of Toronto's market size?

              What you have proven so far is that Toronto has a larger Raw market (ie. its population is bigger) and its a wealthier market (ie. individuals are able to pay more) which I have already stated to be true. Neither means Toronto is a larger Basketball market.

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              • #97
                [QUOTE=GarbageTime;84134]
                Maleko wrote: View Post

                Indeed facts.

                Fact - the world revolves around the sun. Therefore Toronto is a larger market than Washington. Is that how this works, you prevent a fact and therefore its proof of Toronto's market size?

                What you have proven so far is that Toronto has a larger Raw market (ie. its population is bigger) and its a wealthier market (ie. individuals are able to pay more) which I have already stated to be true. Neither means Toronto is a larger Basketball market.
                ok seriously dude? The sun revolves....whatever. Don't even know why I continue to respond to you but just can't seem to help it.
                Fact. The raptors have higher revenues.
                Fact. The raptors have higher profits.
                Fact. The raptors have a higher team value.
                Fact. The attendance percentage is higher both at home AND on the road (which indicates fans outside of the home area).

                Saying that just because the raptor fan is somehow willing to pay more, of course you have facts to back this up,( and perhaps this is true since I do not know the average price of tickets at both stadiums,) and therefore negates market and bingo bango because you say it is so the target market is larger in DC (and target market or not it is the PAYING market that counts for anything) is grasping at straws. For the player and agent to care it only matters about paying market since that is where the player makes money. At the end of the day if the fan is not going to pay money to support you it means nothing as a market to advertisers, business people, etc.

                Opinion. Agents will be more likely to steer a player into a market where they know how to work it and therefore familiar with endorsement opportunities. There is significant endorsement opportunities in Canada if the agent knows or gets off his/her ass and does some work. This of course is my opinion.
                Last edited by Maleko; Mon May 23, 2011, 09:51 AM.

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                • #98
                  If the Raps got lucky with Ed Davis at 13, the team won't be as lucky with Kanter at 5. Talk about lighting a fire in Bargnani if the team does end up picking him up if available at the 5-spot. It's easy for many fans to pick something up with the reports that this player has spurned several teams prior to the draft workouts. The last time I checked, the teams are the only ones that can opt not to invite certain players (especially if they feel that the player won't be around by the time they pick). I'm not sure what BC is talking about (the fifth pick being better than a third - due to marginal differences in salary, etc.). I wish the guy would just stop spinning things and acknowledge that anything outside of the top three picks, things are almost a wash. I'd be shocked if Kanter is available at the 5th spot. If he's not, my ideal pick would be Knight, Valanciunas and then Leonard.
                  “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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                  • #99
                    [QUOTE=Maleko;84140]
                    GarbageTime wrote: View Post

                    ok seriously dude? The sun revolves....whatever. Don't even know why I continue to respond to you but just can't seem to help it.
                    Fact. The raptors have higher revenues.
                    Fact. The raptors have higher profits.
                    Fact. The raptors have a higher team value.
                    Fact. The attendance percentage is higher both at home AND on the road (which indicates fans outside of the home area).

                    Saying that just because the raptor fan is somehow willing to pay more, of course you have facts to back this up,( and perhaps this is true since I do not know the average price of tickets at both stadiums,) and therefore negates market and bingo bango because you say it is so the target market is larger in DC (and target market or not it is the PAYING market that counts for anything) is grasping at straws. For the player and agent to care it only matters about paying market since that is where the player makes money. At the end of the day if the fan is not going to pay money to support you it means nothing as a market to advertisers, business people, etc.

                    Opinion. Agents will be more likely to steer a player into a market where they know how to work it and therefore familiar with endorsement opportunities. There is significant endorsement opportunities in Canada if the agent knows or gets off his/her ass and does some work. This of course is my opinion.
                    Sigh.

                    Mexico City is one of the largest and most densely populated cities in the world. Now picture any town in Arizona with a population of less than 1000. I make "Immigrants Suck. Send them back to Mexico" tshirts. How do you think those two markets will compare? I mean using your logic Mexico City is the place to go.

                    Ok don't like that example because its too extreme? How about this. Explain why NHL teams doing better in Edmonton, Ottawa and Calgary than Phoenix, Atlanta, Nashville, Tampa Bay, Florida, Dallas? Why is a team moving from Atlanta to Winnepeg? That seems like the exact opposite of what should be happening.

                    How much profit/revenue a team is making or their value can be/is impacted by market... but it doesn't say anything as to how "large" a market is. It does say something about how profitable a market is. But it is also dependant on a business plan and business management.

                    Attendance record does give an indication on the local market... but attendance is a drop in the bucket compared to TV viewership.

                    Like i said before, Toronto will always have a team, because it is a profitable location. There are enough people and enough people willing to spend money. If you want to view a market as just the raw size... be my guest. Yes Toronto is bigger than Washington in that sense. But to see what really matters to those selling a product (which the NBA, teams, players (and their agents) are all doing), you need to look well beyond that. They want to be viewed by as many people as they possibly can... and you are more likely to get that in Washington than you are Toronto. Its one of the main reasons players are hesitant to come and readly willing to leave. Whether Toronto is the 4th largest "media market" in North America is irrelevant if a player will get more air time in butt fuck idaho.

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                    • [QUOTE=GarbageTime;84156]
                      Maleko wrote: View Post

                      Sigh.

                      Mexico City is one of the largest and most densely populated cities in the world. Now picture any town in Arizona with a population of less than 1000. I make "Immigrants Suck. Send them back to Mexico" tshirts. How do you think those two markets will compare? I mean using your logic Mexico City is the place to go.

                      Ok don't like that example because its too extreme? How about this. Explain why NHL teams doing better in Edmonton, Ottawa and Calgary than Phoenix, Atlanta, Nashville, Tampa Bay, Florida, Dallas? Why is a team moving from Atlanta to Winnepeg? That seems like the exact opposite of what should be happening.

                      How much profit/revenue a team is making or their value can be/is impacted by market... but it doesn't say anything as to how "large" a market is. It does say something about how profitable a market is. But it is also dependant on a business plan and business management.

                      Attendance record does give an indication on the local market... but attendance is a drop in the bucket compared to TV viewership.

                      Like i said before, Toronto will always have a team, because it is a profitable location. There are enough people and enough people willing to spend money. If you want to view a market as just the raw size... be my guest. Yes Toronto is bigger than Washington in that sense. But to see what really matters to those selling a product (which the NBA, teams, players (and their agents) are all doing), you need to look well beyond that. They want to be viewed by as many people as they possibly can... and you are more likely to get that in Washington than you are Toronto. Its one of the main reasons players are hesitant to come and readly willing to leave. Whether Toronto is the 4th largest "media market" in North America is irrelevant if a player will get more air time in butt fuck idaho.
                      I can guarantee you there are more people watching Raptors games than Wizards games. Every Raptor game is televised across Canada. If Toronto has better attendance, who cares if the watching public is in the hometown of the franchise or spread across 6000km? I could be wrong, but I would think television viewership of one sh!t franchise in a city with around 600,000 people would be much less than the viewership of another sh!t franchise in a country with 32,000,000 - with the population size being over 53 times as large and basketball being a very popular sport in Canada - albeit not as popular as hockey, not even close - I think the Raps can do better than DC, much better in fact, in TV viewership. Even if DC has 4 times as many basketball watching fans per capita than Toronto, they still have the same number of viewers in their home cities.

                      If players want to be seen by as many people as they possibly can, then the Raptors are the place to come - unless one American viewer is equal to twenty Canadians or something else I am not aware of.

                      With all that said, your argument is based soley on the premise that players don't want to play here and people do not want to watch basketball. One of those statements are true - players don't want to play here.

                      If the Raptors are able to win and have an exciting product (getting high picks in sh!t drafts don't help either), then players will not hesitate to come here. The US recognition and televised games on TNT, ABC or whatever national television station in the States will come - it did before with VC and it will again in time if the Raptors become a winning and exciting product. Keep in mind OKC has been 3 years in the making (4 if you count SEA) and they are only late last year and this year getting the recognition.

                      http://www.nba.com/wizards/media/wiz10-11schedule-a.pdf
                      2 games on TNT, 0 on ESPN, 5 on NBAtv.
                      The first TNT game was John Wall's first as a pro being #1 pick on October 28.
                      I believe I recall the 2nd at end of November actually being cancelled because they sucked but I could be very wrong there.

                      The Wizards, much like Toronto, SAC, MIN, etc, will get the national US attention when they have something to show.

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                      • [QUOTE=Matt52;84174]
                        GarbageTime wrote: View Post

                        I can guarantee you there are more people watching Raptors games than Wizards games. Every Raptor game is televised across Canada. If Toronto has better attendance, who cares if the watching public is in the hometown of the franchise or spread across 6000km? I could be wrong, but I would think television viewership of one sh!t franchise in a city with around 600,000 people would be much less than the viewership of another sh!t franchise in a country with 32,000,000 - with the population size being over 53 times as large and basketball being a very popular sport in Canada - albeit not as popular as hockey, not even close - I think the Raps can do better than DC, much better in fact, in TV viewership. Even if DC has 4 times as many basketball watching fans per capita than Toronto, they still have the same number of viewers in their home cities.

                        If players want to be seen by as many people as they possibly can, then the Raptors are the place to come - unless one American viewer is equal to twenty Canadians or something else I am not aware of.

                        With all that said, your argument is based soley on the premise that players don't want to play here and people do not want to watch basketball. One of those statements are true - players don't want to play here.

                        If the Raptors are able to win and have an exciting product (getting high picks in sh!t drafts don't help either), then players will not hesitate to come here. The US recognition and televised games on TNT, ABC or whatever national television station in the States will come - it did before with VC and it will again in time if the Raptors become a winning and exciting product. Keep in mind OKC has been 3 years in the making (4 if you count SEA) and they are only late last year and this year getting the recognition.

                        http://www.nba.com/wizards/media/wiz10-11schedule-a.pdf
                        2 games on TNT, 0 on ESPN, 5 on NBAtv.
                        The first TNT game was John Wall's first as a pro being #1 pick on October 28.
                        I believe I recall the 2nd at end of November actually being cancelled because they sucked but I could be very wrong there.

                        The Wizards, much like Toronto, SAC, MIN, etc, will get the national US attention when they have something to show.
                        so we are going to list all of Canada but not all of America then? (which is 10x the size of Canada) If excitment brings people to watch games, isn't Washington a team that has atleast one exciting player in Wall (perhaps 2 in McGee) against Toronto's 0?


                        So the Wiz get 6 (maybe 7 games) vs how many for the Raps (0?... don't know this for sure, but couldn't find any information showing any nationally televised games in America)? Why would the networks want Wizard games instead of Raptors game if they felt there would have been more viewers? (trust me when I say this... networks want the most viewers possible. Period. Viewers = money from advertising)


                        My premise is NOT that players don't want to play here or that people do not want to watch. But rather Toronto is not a team that is going to get much (or as much) attention (mainly because hockey is the sport of choice but also do to being outside America) and that causes players to find other locations more desirable (there may be more reasons than this for players to not want to play here, but I'll limit them to just getting attention). Since players find other locations more desirable there will be a tendency for them to leave (Damon, McGrady, Vince, Bosh) which in turn reduces viewership. Less viewership means less games televised, which means less attention. And the circle continues.

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                        • [QUOTE=GarbageTime;84186]
                          Matt52 wrote: View Post

                          so we are going to list all of Canada but not all of America then? (which is 10x the size of Canada) If excitment brings people to watch games, isn't Washington a team that has atleast one exciting player in Wall (perhaps 2 in McGee) against Toronto's 0?


                          So the Wiz get 6 (maybe 7 games) vs how many for the Raps (0?... don't know this for sure, but couldn't find any information showing any nationally televised games in America)? Why would the networks want Wizard games instead of Raptors game if they felt there would have been more viewers? (trust me when I say this... networks want the most viewers possible. Period. Viewers = money from advertising)


                          My premise is NOT that players don't want to play here or that people do not want to watch. But rather Toronto is not a team that is going to get much (or as much) attention (mainly because hockey is the sport of choice but also do to being outside America) and that causes players to find other locations more desirable (there may be more reasons than this for players to not want to play here, but I'll limit them to just getting attention). Since players find other locations more desirable there will be a tendency for them to leave (Damon, McGrady, Vince, Bosh) which in turn reduces viewership. Less viewership means less games televised, which means less attention. And the circle continues.
                          Not every Wizards game is broadcast nationally. Every Raptors game is, it just happens to be in Canada. So your argument of total numbers of viewership is shot - no if's, and's, or but's as this was your argument before. 6 or 7 games and only 1, maybe 2, really national (as you said yourself earlier NBA TV is not the same) and it was opening night with a franchise calibre, exciting PG who was the #1 pick no less.

                          A WSH team that has one exciting player was reason to televise one game - his first and it was. The Raps do not have a player near the calibre of John Wall. I already mentioned this problem as the Raptors have not had an opportunity to draft a legit franchise player.... well, ever.

                          I do get what you are saying, the problem is your argument has two flaws:

                          1) you think every player is egotistical and wants non-stop US coverage. It is true for many franchise players (LeBron, Wade, James, Anthony, Howard), but not all. Durant, for example, is quite happy and content to play in a small market because they have a winning organization. Duncan as well. Ditto for Nash.

                          2) you do not consider Toronto will ever win. If Toronto are competing for the top of the standings with games that will have playoff implications or are making deep playoff runs, the NBA and TNT/ABC/ESPN/Whoever are not going to cancel their contracts or broadcast other shows because it is Toronto on the schedule.

                          The Raptors, like about 22 other franchises, are looking for a young and exciting core to build around to be contenders for years to come. It is unfortunate the draft has not been able to get a bonafide star in Toronto but there is always next year. Toronto may not ever be the number one destination of free agents but neither was or is Memphis or OKC/SEA - how do you think both will fair this offseason? Much better than recent years I bet.

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                          • [QUOTE=Matt52;84202]
                            GarbageTime wrote: View Post

                            Not every Wizards game is broadcast nationally. Every Raptors game is, it just happens to be in Canada. So your argument of total numbers of viewership is shot - no if's, and's, or but's as this was your argument before. 6 or 7 games and only 1, maybe 2, really national (as you said yourself earlier NBA TV is not the same) and it was opening night with a franchise calibre, exciting PG who was the #1 pick no less.

                            A WSH team that has one exciting player was reason to televise one game - his first and it was. The Raps do not have a player near the calibre of John Wall. I already mentioned this problem as the Raptors have not had an opportunity to draft a legit franchise player.... well, ever.

                            I do get what you are saying, the problem is your argument has two flaws:

                            1) you think every player is egotistical and wants non-stop US coverage. It is true for many franchise players (LeBron, Wade, James, Anthony, Howard), but not all. Durant, for example, is quite happy and content to play in a small market because they have a winning organization. Duncan as well. Ditto for Nash.

                            2) you do not consider Toronto will ever win. If Toronto are competing for the top of the standings with games that will have playoff implications or are making deep playoff runs, the NBA and TNT/ABC/ESPN/Whoever are not going to cancel their contracts or broadcast other shows because it is Toronto on the schedule.

                            The Raptors, like about 22 other franchises, are looking for a young and exciting core to build around to be contenders for years to come. It is unfortunate the draft has not been able to get a bonafide star in Toronto but there is always next year. Toronto may not ever be the number one destination of free agents but neither was or is Memphis or OKC/SEA - how do you think both will fair this offseason? Much better than recent years I bet.
                            First off I said nothing about NBATV so I'm not sure where you got that from.

                            Secondly... Raps games are covered nationally in Canada. But again this goes back to selling "I hate immigrants" Tshirts to mexicans. I'll tell you that outside southern ontario (and even at times within) I've heard the "Basketball is just a bunch of N****s wearing pajamas" comment alot more than, "damn did you see the game last night?" Thats not even getting into the slew of "yeah I like b-ball, but the hockey game is on tonight" guys.

                            I completely agree that it takes a player of the right mindset. I have said this numerous times (not here but in the past). The problem ofcourse is finding them... because as time goes on their attitudes change. Bosh for instance I believe was perfectly fine with Toronto, but as he got to know the other superstars, saw what they had, they attention they got I think his attitude changed (I could be wrong here and he could have been a douche from the start, but I'll give him the benifit of the doubt). But thats why this team needs to avoid players that don't have that mindset (much easier said then done ofcourse)

                            Finally I have never said it will always stay the same even if the Raps win. But rather its a hinderence to becoming a winner, and that in turn is a hinderence to getting players, which is a hinderence to getting viewers (and each of those are interconnected). Its gonna be a long road to get there... will take a combination of both the points you made. An exciting talented player with a loyal mindset and good personality that can take a team to the top, along with all the assets it takes to help beside him. That is no small task, especially with how the game (and players) tend to lean towards the Lebron/Bosh personality as opposed to the Durant/Duncan's this team needs.

                            Even then that is no guarantee that it will work. Again look at hockey in the southern US. (not that I think the Raps will get to that point ie. near bankruptcy)

                            In the meantime, fans shouldn't dillude themselves that this is the 4th largest market. That players are fine with coming here and its the teams/leagues/GMs/countries/fans/players fault. In specific cases it may be. In specific cases it may also just be players not wanting to play in Canada. But more than anything its the invisible hand of the market, and you just don't get to control that with a magic wand.

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                            • I'll tell you that outside southern ontario (and even at times within) I've heard the "Basketball is just a bunch of N****s wearing pajamas"
                              I call bullshit. Watch what you say.
                              Never, under any circumstances, take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.

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                              • GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                                Secondly... Raps games are covered nationally in Canada. But again this goes back to selling "I hate immigrants" Tshirts to mexicans. I'll tell you that outside southern ontario (and even at times within) I've heard the "Basketball is just a bunch of N****s wearing pajamas" comment alot more than, "damn did you see the game last night?"
                                What the hell kind of people do you hang around? Basketball is a popular sport played across the country. And is more popular in more populated areas, where there are obviously more viewers. Quite frankly, who cares if people in the sticks don't like basketball, because the big markets, like Montreal, Vancouver, Halifax etc, are where the viewers are, and basketball is popular there. Especially among young people. Don't believe me? CHeck out how the attendance of NBA exhibition games are in these cities.

                                Basically, I think you need to get your facts straight.
                                Last edited by Tim W.; Tue May 24, 2011, 12:35 AM. Reason: QUoted wrong perseon
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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