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Anyone else scared that BC is backed into a 2 year corner?

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  • #16
    Beaverboi wrote: View Post
    One of the problems I see with a four-year rebuild is the that the first draft pick's rookie contract is up. In this case DD and maybe Ed might be fed up with the constant losing and want to bolt. I know that is something that can not be planned for, but you have to show some improvement or at least signs that things are improving. If all that is accomplished is a bunch of draft picks, players start to think of greener pastures.
    Good points.

    The Raptors were in the hunt for a playoff birth DD's rookie season.

    There are 3 years before ED's rookie deal is up.

    The Raps are officially 10 months in to the tear down and build up project.

    The flip side of the argument is the guys who came to a losing franchise would want to be a part of turning the team around. Being unable to be a part of a winning team doesn't speak highly of the so-called talented players we have. I think the word I am looking for is pride.

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    • #17
      Matt52 wrote: View Post
      With two solid pieces already acquired through the draft in the last 2 years, the rebuild is underway. Solid draft picks this year and next and the rebuild is complete - that is a big IF though on the drafting.

      The difference between now and O'Neal/Hedo is not trying to build around an All-Star who does not make others better and is not capable of leading.
      So who are the Raps building around now that makes others better and is capable of leading?

      You really think that two more drafts, with this one being especially devoid of franchise-player potential, is going to give the Raps enough talent to compete? Against who?

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      • #18
        Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
        So who are the Raps building around now that makes others better and is capable of leading?

        You really think that two more drafts, with this one being especially devoid of franchise-player potential, is going to give the Raps enough talent to compete? Against who?
        The bolded is to be determined. DD just finished year 2, ED year 1. The draft has not even been done.

        As for the next two drafts: who are you, I or anyone else to know what these guys develop in to?

        Don't forget my reply was to this quote of your's:

        Rebuilds take time, not 2 years with an chance for a 3rd if things go to plan. With BC already talking about accelerating things, you have to be worried that he'll sacrifice long term success for a bit of short term mediocrity
        You are doing quite a bit of guessing about what is going on in BC's mind. He also has history on his side with taking a 27 win Raptors team to 2 playoff appearances and taking a 29 win PHX team to 62, 54 win seasons (the 54 with Amar'e not playing 78 games. I know, insert Hedo/O'Neal/Kapono/Bargnani here. However, there is a shift underway that has been mentioned numerous times.

        If the team stayed as is for the foreseeable future (i.e. 2-3 years) I would agree but there is also no consideration given to drafted players impact this year or next, current players developing and maturing, possible trades over the next year or two, or free agent signings this year or next.

        Rebuilds take longer than 2-3 years if the only method of change or player turnover is through the draft. Using all avenues available and some luck through the lottery, 2-3 years would be a reasonable period of time to build a foundation for a good team (not just a fringe playoff team). Year one, by my count, will be in the books at the draft for the Raptors.

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        • #19
          The one thing I have been thinking about since reading this thread is Calderon / Bargnani / Barbossa / Evans... Those four guys combined take up about 30 million in salary. If we get lucky and we get 4 starters out of the last 2 and next 2 drafts, we will be very close to being competitive.

          As has been pointed out before, most teams have a rotation of 8 - 10 guys. If we are able to replace those veterans I mentioned with others who can provide essential qualities for a winning team (shooting, secondary scoring, rebounding, defence, leadership etc. etc. etc.) and combine them with the young players we have / will be drafting, this team could have a bright future. This is all a best case scenario (rarely happens).

          Worst case scenario, the next 2 kids we draft are complete busts, DD and ED bolt town as soon as their rookie deals are up, BC swings a trade for Rashard Lewis and Michael Redd, and the Raptors decide to bring back the pin-striped uniforms, rehire Babcock, and move back to Rogers Centre.

          I hope I am wrong about the last part lmao...
          Last edited by Donnie Brasco; Mon Jun 6, 2011, 05:08 PM.

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          • #20
            Seems like this boils down to the fact that some people are natural optimists, and some are natural pessimists. I'm a natural pessimist. Seems like those who think the Raps are a few years away from completing the rebuild are assuming a lot; that the kids they have will develop, that the draft picks they have won't be busts, that trades will bolster the roster instead of backfiring, etc etc. I just don't have that much faith in the existing roster, in this year's draft and in the team's management.

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            • #21
              Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
              I'm a natural pessimist. I just don't have that much faith in the existing roster, in this year's draft and in the team's management.
              Sigh, me too...

              Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
              I just don't have that much faith in the existing roster, in this year's draft and in the team's management. .
              Me neither.

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              • #22
                I'm guessing there are a lot of Leaf fans here as well - lol. I hear OKC and CHI are always looking for new fans.

                (joking)

                I think the optimist vs. pessimist is probably one of the best ways to view the situation and, while I lean towards optimism, both views are unknowns and valid at this point in time.

                Trading (and getting something of value for Bargnani and/or Calderon) puts the balance of power in the optimists side, in my opinion.

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                • #23
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  Trading (and getting something of value for Bargnani and/or Calderon) puts the balance of power in the optimists side, in my opinion.
                  Yes. Let it be done.

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                  • #24
                    I suspect the 2 year contract is to allow BC a graceful exit that appears to be on his own terms. BC is an NBA golden boy and a likely candidate to replace Stern some day...you CANNOT fire him. I see him setting up the front office and then sometime before his two years are up he will announce he has decided not to come back (even though MLSE *wink* wanted him back) but the team is in good shape without him now, blah, blah blah.

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                    • #25
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      I'm guessing there are a lot of Leaf fans here as well - lol. I hear OKC and CHI are always looking for new fans.

                      (joking)

                      I think the optimist vs. pessimist is probably one of the best ways to view the situation and, while I lean towards optimism, both views are unknowns and valid at this point in time.

                      Trading (and getting something of value for Bargnani and/or Calderon) puts the balance of power in the optimists side, in my opinion.
                      See, I think of it the other way around: after being a Raps fan since their inception and an NBA fan for even longer, I've become pretty aware of just how talented a club needs to be in order to succeed without a top-15 franchise player dragging them along. And as far as I can tell, the Raps' only shot at landing one lies in next year's draft. I can't see such a player coming by trade, and I can't see it via free agency unless things take a dramatic turn for the better. Anything less and you're looking at a team like the Hawks, perpetually getting bounced out of the first or second round.

                      As for the idea that a trade will swing the balance, I wonder how you think that might go down. If you're talking about adding franchise-level talent, then the Raps would have to strip their roster bare, making a resign unlikely. If you're talking about anything less, then I have to wonder what the point would be and how much such a player would really help (as well as what young players the Raps would have to give up). The only trade chips the Raps own are pieces that they're counting on to grow internally - they won't be able to swing a trade without including some of them, and how much can they afford to give up in adding established talent without simply treading water and turning into the Hawks?

                      Again, I just don't share your optimism.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
                        ...how talented a club needs to be in order to succeed without a top-15 franchise player dragging them along. And as far as I can tell, the Raps' only shot at landing one lies in next year's draft. I can't see such a player coming by trade, and I can't see it via free agency unless things take a dramatic turn for the better.
                        Agreed. Although to be fair, I don't think Matt52 was talking about getting a franchise player for Calderon / Bargnani (probably not going to happen) Only that replacing those players with veterans of equal / greater value, who you know, play defence, would make more people feel better about this team.

                        You are right. For the most part you obtain franchise players through the draft...

                        Unless three of them up and decide 2 years before their free agency that it would be cool to play together, and then they weasel a way to make that happen.

                        Man I hope Dirk comes through in this series and delays their glory, if only for one year. Man, would that ever be right.
                        Last edited by Donnie Brasco; Wed Jun 8, 2011, 05:35 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
                          See, I think of it the other way around: after being a Raps fan since their inception and an NBA fan for even longer, I've become pretty aware of just how talented a club needs to be in order to succeed without a top-15 franchise player dragging them along. And as far as I can tell, the Raps' only shot at landing one lies in next year's draft. I can't see such a player coming by trade, and I can't see it via free agency unless things take a dramatic turn for the better. Anything less and you're looking at a team like the Hawks, perpetually getting bounced out of the first or second round.

                          As for the idea that a trade will swing the balance, I wonder how you think that might go down. If you're talking about adding franchise-level talent, then the Raps would have to strip their roster bare, making a resign unlikely. If you're talking about anything less, then I have to wonder what the point would be and how much such a player would really help (as well as what young players the Raps would have to give up). The only trade chips the Raps own are pieces that they're counting on to grow internally - they won't be able to swing a trade without including some of them, and how much can they afford to give up in adding established talent without simply treading water and turning into the Hawks?

                          Again, I just don't share your optimism.
                          And not sharing the optimism is fine but be sure not to let opinion sway reality. I have a feeling reality is somewhere in between both of our opinions.

                          As for how I might think a Bargnani and/or Calderon trade might go down, check the trade forum. I've done more than a few ideas - some nonsense, some reasonable.

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                          • #28
                            Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
                            See, I think of it the other way around: after being a Raps fan since their inception and an NBA fan for even longer, I've become pretty aware of just how talented a club needs to be in order to succeed without a top-15 franchise player dragging them along. And as far as I can tell, the Raps' only shot at landing one lies in next year's draft. I can't see such a player coming by trade, and I can't see it via free agency unless things take a dramatic turn for the better. Anything less and you're looking at a team like the Hawks, perpetually getting bounced out of the first or second round.

                            As for the idea that a trade will swing the balance, I wonder how you think that might go down. If you're talking about adding franchise-level talent, then the Raps would have to strip their roster bare, making a resign unlikely. If you're talking about anything less, then I have to wonder what the point would be and how much such a player would really help (as well as what young players the Raps would have to give up). The only trade chips the Raps own are pieces that they're counting on to grow internally - they won't be able to swing a trade without including some of them, and how much can they afford to give up in adding established talent without simply treading water and turning into the Hawks?

                            Again, I just don't share your optimism.
                            I agree with so much of this.... except one thing. I don't think you NEED a top tier talent to win. I think a team CAN win with a very well built team (ex. Detroit), its just rarely done and very difficult to do (then again I wouldn't argue with someone if they considered Ben Wallace that top tier talent as I think he is the best defensive player to ever play)

                            The Raps either loose until they draft a pimp, or try to win and hope they get lucky along the way. Regardless, I'd still take the later if only to not watch loosing seasons for another 5 years.

                            Just a note: for those who think DD or Ed will just "bolt", don't forget about RFA. The only way they will leave is if the demand to leave, atleast allowing it to happen (in part) on the Raptors terms.

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                            • #29
                              Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
                              Seems like this boils down to the fact that some people are natural optimists, and some are natural pessimists. I'm a natural pessimist. Seems like those who think the Raps are a few years away from completing the rebuild are assuming a lot; that the kids they have will develop, that the draft picks they have won't be busts, that trades will bolster the roster instead of backfiring, etc etc. I just don't have that much faith in the existing roster, in this year's draft and in the team's management.
                              I'm neither the former or the latter. While I do say things like, "we've got this draft and the next," that's merely being flippant, and who really enjoys reading, "oh no, the sky is falling." I'm a realist who simply tries to lighten the mood. What I say I hope will happen is not the same as what I think will happen, especially when you consider what I think is needed for us to become a real contender.

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                              • #30
                                If he can:
                                1. Get rid of Calderon's contract
                                2. Trade Bargnani or move him to the bench as 6/7th man
                                3. Draft Kanter AND Knight/Walker in 2011
                                4. Draft Barnes in 2012
                                5. Sign a big name FA (Chris Paul?) in 2012 (all the young talent will attract them)

                                Then he is God of the dinosaurs. All this is of course capable of happening in 2 years.

                                1. Paul 2. DeRozan 3. Barnes 4. Davis 5. Kanter. 6. Knight 7. Bargnani

                                Ahhh, dreaming is nice, ain't it?

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