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Chad Ford Mock Draft 6.0: Raptors STILL selecting Jan Vesely

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  • #16
    dballa21 wrote: View Post
    Kemba is an excellent defender who led major point guard prospects in steals and blocks. He fits in better with our athletic core, and imo addresses more of a need than Leonard.
    kemba WAS an excellent (perhaps debatable) defender in college. he's not overly big, so how well he does defending in the pros has, obviously, yet to be determined. all signs point to him being - at worst - an average to above-average defender. not sure that he necessarily addresses a greater 'need' than leonard. while many disparage jose (myself included) and assume he's going to be traded, it's not as though jose was a primary reason for the team's suckitude. at least he's a starting calibre PG...not sure the raps have a starting calibre SF (unless demar puts on 20 lbs of muscle & they move him there, which is, IMO, what should happen eventually). that being said...who knows if leonard is the answer for their SF woes any more than kemba would be the answer to their PF woes? when a team wins 22 games, they suck, and there's a multitude of reasons shy, so you can't think that there will be some radical change by addressing just one or two (drafted player & new coach).
    TRUE LOVE - Sometimes you know it the instant you see it across the bar.

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    • #17
      I don't believe this, just like I didn't believe it the last five times. The Raptors won't pick this guy. It makes no sense to me given the other options.

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      • #18
        yertu damkule wrote: View Post
        i don't buy the 'too much of a gamble' bit...in a weak draft, where the talent level is fairly even once you're past the top two picks, can anyone really be considered a 'gamble?' sure, there are guys who are slated as late first rounders that you wouldn't pick in the lottery simply because there are clear-cut better options available...but realistically, the guys grouped 3-12 are pretty close in ability. there's talk of kemba slipping past 10...and also going 3rd. how often does that happen? and it's the same with half a dozen guys in the lottery, the range is all over the place. i've always felt that you pick the best player for your particular situation, regardless of where he's ranked. if you like leonard, but feel he's not 'worthy' of the 5th (but is, somehow, worthy of the 7th, for example), then just take him (unless someone's giving you something of value to swap picks, and you KNOW he'll still be available with that later pick).

        Agreed the overall consensus after the top 2 drops off. I personally agree with that but also see another gap after 3 with Knight being a better prospect then the next group. With the lockout looming lots of potential lottery picks have moved up no doubt. I agree with your thought on if you like a player and feel he's best for your team to pick him. I just can't see BC taking that big risk based on his length of contract. Kemba, Kantar and Leonard look to be solid but unspectacular pro's while Vesley could be incredible or bust.

        FWIW - i do like leonard, but fear he may be one of the biggest beneficiaries of some of the top prospects dropping out. he's got all the skills (even offensively, i don't think he's nearly as unpolished as others), but what bothers me is that he never really jumped out while at SDSt as 'the guy.' in his interviews, he seems very humble, and i know he's got a rep as a hard-nosed, get-after-it player...i just didn't see much of that in college. maybe it's just his style...not flashy, team-oriented, does the dirty stuff, etc. might be a perfect complementary piece ('cause you know you aren't getting a franchise-changer with the 5th pick in this draft).
        Agreed 100%! If he's drafted for the defensive end, crashing the boards and running the break I prefer his attitude to a player who demands the ball/attention. Leave the scoring to Demar and Dre and lets get some guys to do the dirt work.

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        • #19
          RAPresenting wrote: View Post
          Agreed 100%! If he's drafted for the defensive end, crashing the boards and running the break I prefer his attitude to a player who demands the ball/attention. Leave the scoring to Demar and Dre and lets get some guys to do the dirt work.
          Then it fits in with the idea that the Raps are considering Biyombo. Personally, I believe if Knight is there at 5, he's the pick. Otherwise it's between Leonard and Biyombo. They're gonna go with uber athletic guys who put defense first - preferably someone with a high ceiling. The workout today in Detroit with Biyombo, Tristan Thompson and Markieff Morris will determine how high Biyombo goes.

          Colangelo has always gone for the guys who not only fit what the team is trying to do, but also with athletic guys who have high potential. That's always been a Colangelo trait - picking the guy who not only is the Best Player available, but also who has the highest ceiling at that particular point. Now with Casey on board, they're going to select the guy who is not only coachable, but who doesn't mind putting defense first.
          Last edited by MangoKid; Tue Jun 21, 2011, 04:12 PM.

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          • #20
            paintingtheblack wrote:
            With the hiring of the new coach for the Raptors it will be very interesting to see which direction they want to head in the draft. It would seem that taking a guy like Kawhi Leonard would be redundant as he sounds like a Derozan type player. A guy like Vesely doesn't sound like someone the new defensive minded Raptor coach would like to have starting at small forward and another European "big" man should be something the Raptors want to be getting away from probably. There are a lot of options to go to and I hope Bryan Colangelo makes the right decision because he hasn't made very many good ones in his time as Raptors GM.

            http://chrisross91.wordpress.com/201...-chance-on-me/
            Don't understand the redundancy argument. They're roughly the same size and both athletic. Other than that I don't see much else. Leonard is a defensive-oriented player and DD was an offensive player going into the draft. Leonard should be a better rebounder and it looks like he's already putting work in and improving his shot. I don't see the problem with having 2 athletic wings on the floor at the same time.

            Redundancy is often a poor argument. Sometimes players are very similar. Sometimes it's mostly a size/athleticism comparison. Lots of people worried about the redundancy of Ed and Amir. I think anyone who watches knows their games are quite different, and the only redundancy is in their size and youth (and their ugly jumpers =p).

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            • #21
              Do we really need someone like Biyomba though? The guy can't play a lick of offense. He's the anti-Bargs. It's like getting a much younger version of Reggie who doesn't have his IQ yet. When Reggie is on the floor its like playing 4 on 5. It would be nice to get Biyomba but only if we can get him as a second pick since he would be like an 8th or 9th option. And on this team, you need someone who can be a starter or at least a first or second bench option.

              I'd rather resign Reggie for cheap, and use him instead of Biyomba (for some veteran presence). Then go for someone like Walker/Leonard or Val. Assuming Kanter is off the table. I say no to Knight. I just don't have the same faith in him that a lot of other people do.

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              • #22
                planetmars wrote: View Post
                Do we really need someone like Biyomba though? The guy can't play a lick of offense. He's the anti-Bargs. It's like getting a much younger version of Reggie who doesn't have his IQ yet. When Reggie is on the floor its like playing 4 on 5. It would be nice to get Biyomba but only if we can get him as a second pick since he would be like an 8th or 9th option. And on this team, you need someone who can be a starter or at least a first or second bench option.

                I'd rather resign Reggie for cheap, and use him instead of Biyomba (for some veteran presence). Then go for someone like Walker/Leonard or Val. Assuming Kanter is off the table. I say no to Knight. I just don't have the same faith in him that a lot of other people do.
                The one thing Biyombo can't really do is hit a jumpshot, but he can do putback jams and layups. His over 50% FGs points to that. For people clamouring for guys that play D, Biyombo certainly can do that. He doesn't require touches. The thing that Biyombo could possibly bring that Reggie does is play better D and block shots. While Reggie is a big body, all he really does is rebound.
                I compare Biyombo's ceiling to that of an offensively challenged Marcus Camby.

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                • #23
                  I think to be a decent player in the paint you need mass. Biyomba is long and athletic but doesn't have the mass. It's great that he scores at a high efficiency in the paint, but that's not against an NBA team. Do you see him being able to score easily in the paint against players like Howard, Bynum or Perkins, or even Marc Gasol, or Bogut?

                  Hasheem Thabeet (a similar kind of player) I believe shot over 65% from the paint. He's struggling to find minutes now in the league, and people are thinking bust.

                  I've heard comparisons to Ben Wallace since they are roughly the same size. Michael Rosenberg of the Detroit Free Press had something to say about that, which you can find here.

                  Just because Toronto hasn't had a good defensive team for a while shouldn't mean we just get players for their defense and throw offense down the toilet. They are not quite ready for role players in my opinion. Once they become a perennial playoff team is when they should acquire role players. Now is the time to get a decent 2-way player and focus on getting the team better as a whole.

                  Again if the Raptors get a second pick then I am more than okay with selecting Biyomba with that pick, but a top 5 for a role player who can only play one way? I'm not so sure about that.

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                  • #24
                    Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    Since there's a chance there won't even be a next season, who cares if Valanciunas is going to miss a season. It's not as if he doesn't want to come. The only reason he won't come next season is because his current team wouldn't let him. I'd rather see the Raptors take Valanciunas than Vesley, Walker or Knight.
                    The big man outside Kanter is Jonas. It is so dumb what most teams will do when someone is honest. The lockout is imminent. Here's a player that was upfront, and now his stock drops? Walker has intrigued me of late but he is another Bayless clone. If we draft Kemba, he's going to have to take the reins away from Bayless to prove his worth as a 5th pick. Valanciunas on the other hand is a legit 7 footer with a mean streak. He can play and contribute right away once the labout dust settles.


                    Jonas Valanciunas is close to a buyout with Lietuvos Rytas, according to sources.

                    But the buyout would not allow Valanciunas to come to the NBA for the 11-12 season, according to the report.

                    The Cavaliers are high on Valanciunas with the fourth overall selection, but would likely not select him if he wouldn't arrive until the 12-13 season.
                    Last edited by Balls of Steel; Tue Jun 21, 2011, 06:09 PM.

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                    • #25
                      planetmars wrote: View Post
                      I think to be a decent player in the paint you need mass. Biyomba is long and athletic but doesn't have the mass. It's great that he scores at a high efficiency in the paint, but that's not against an NBA team. Do you see him being able to score easily in the paint against players like Howard, Bynum or Perkins, or even Marc Gasol, or Bogut?

                      Hasheem Thabeet (a similar kind of player) I believe shot over 65% from the paint. He's struggling to find minutes now in the league, and people are thinking bust.

                      I've heard comparisons to Ben Wallace since they are roughly the same size. Michael Rosenberg of the Detroit Free Press had something to say about that, which you can find here.

                      Just because Toronto hasn't had a good defensive team for a while shouldn't mean we just get players for their defense and throw offense down the toilet. They are not quite ready for role players in my opinion. Once they become a perennial playoff team is when they should acquire role players. Now is the time to get a decent 2-way player and focus on getting the team better as a whole.

                      Again if the Raptors get a second pick then I am more than okay with selecting Biyomba with that pick, but a top 5 for a role player who can only play one way? I'm not so sure about that.
                      I'm against them taking Biyombo at 5 because I think they could trade down and still get him. I do like him as a player however. Your mass argument however is incorrect: the guy weighs 245, five pounds less than Bargs who guarded Guys like Howard and Tim Duncan fairly well one on one when Bosh was here. He could easily be 260 pounds by his second season and that is plenty enough mass to guard anyone. In terms of his ability to score, If he can be a career 10 ppg guy who gets his points off put backs and alley oops while playing great D, I don't think anyone would mind that. It's not like he can't learn to be a decent offensive player, he just isn't right now. Dwight Howard was terrible on offense for his first couple seasons and look at him now.
                      "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

                      -Churchill

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                      • #26
                        white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                        What the hell is up with Chad Ford's Vesely infatuation?
                        I just had a chance to listen to Ryen Russillo's Jun 17 podcast featuring Chad Ford running through his mock draft. He was very wishy washy on the Raptor's number 5 pick. Yes, he still put Vesely there, but he spent a lot of time during the segment talking about how his sources have dried up and no one "internal" on any team is talking anymore.

                        He also remarked about all the Raptors fans writing in that they'll die if BC pick another soft Euro, and was sure to emphasize that Vesely is not a soft Euro ("More Anthony Randolph then AB").

                        All this makes me think his Vesely pick reflects who he thinks the Raps should take, rather than who he hears/knows they will pick.

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                        • #27
                          LBF wrote: View Post
                          ok, i'm going to put a stone cold guarantee that if kemba is available at 5. the raps are picking him.
                          It will be DUMB not to pick him

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                          • #28
                            I've gotta think that now that the Raps have Casey on board, they are gonna go with a player who can contribute on D right away. That means (to me) that Vessely is off the board, and the Raps are gonna pick Leonard, or reach and take Biyumbo.

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                            • #29
                              I wonder how much say Casey even gets in the matter, seeing as how he hasn't been around any of the scouts or GM and probably hasn't even seen any of the players in consideration first hand.

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                              • #30
                                duncan wrote: View Post
                                I've gotta think that now that the Raps have Casey on board, they are gonna go with a player who can contribute on D right away. That means (to me) that Vessely is off the board, and the Raps are gonna pick Leonard, or reach and take Biyumbo.
                                How can you saw that Leonard and Biyombo are the only players who can contribute D right away. There's Kemba, Knight, and Thompson at least.

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