Devils Advocate: Let's say Bargs DOES figure things out

[GarbageTime]

I think one more thing we have to look at is which players want to be here. I don't a sense the love for Toronto from Ed. With Amir, you know he loves being here. There is no point in building around players that don't have us in the future plans.

Ed would net us some better young talent. Package him with Bayless or Calderon and we might get a stud SF or PG.

I find this interesting... we need to consider who wants to be here, so lets package Calderon.... yeah there we go, because that guy clearly has no interest in this organization.

How about we consider guys who want to be here, but not prioritize that over guys who can help an organization and guys who hurt an the organization. Ed's locked in for 6 more years thanks to RFA (unless he demands a trade).

[Fully]

I still say that Bargnani is the one to be moved, and any posturing by Casey/Colangelo in the meantime is simply to keep his trade value high. The media/fans have turned on him to the point that he'd have to be EXCEPTIONAL this season in order to keep the heat off himself and frankly that type of turnaround on the boards and on D just isn't realistic.

On the other hand, Derozan/Amir/Ed seem to have made a connection with the fans and with each other. I'm worried that trading away one of those guys will affect the team chemistry severely, especially if it's to keep Bargnani around (who doesn't appear to have a particularly strong bond with any teammate, save for Jose perhaps).

There's a chance that they all stay this season because a) the frontcourt isn't really that crowded until JV shows up and they sign another big man or two and b) the point of this year appears to be as bad as possible.

[Tim W.]

Yet again, it seems highly unlikely, according to the new coaching staff and management, that we will be trading Bargnani this offseason. At this point, there's not much of a point in, again and again, repeating your argument. The post was about trading Davis or Amir.

And I said that I don't THINK that Amir's fouling rate will go down anytime soon because watching him play, he still has nights where he can't stay on the court to save his life. He was great in some games last season, but in others he just seemed lost. I don't know if we will ever be able to count on him giving us 30-35 mins per game when he is so inconsistent.

How often does a coaching staff or management say it's likely someone will be traded? Has he said it about Amir or Davis? And my point is that even if Bargnani does "get it", it's likely only to be temporary, so trading him is still the best option. And I enjoy repeating my argument again and again, just in case some people miss it.

As for Amir, he averaged 29 mpg in January and February, and then hurt his ankle. Amir's fouling rate consistently went down from the start of the season to where he was averaging less than 5 fouls per 48 minutes. If it wasn't for him hurting his ankle, he probably would have averaged close to 30 mpg for the season.

So obviously your observations about his fouling rate was incorrect, as was your assertion that he can never play 30 mpg.

[Tim W.]

Amir's been in the league for 5 years and has slowly improved his foul rate but he still has a long, long way to go. Favors, Mozgov and Cousins were rookies, Shaq is retired and played sparingly last year, and Jermaine and Ilgauskas are not too far behind.

Amir is serviceable, yes, but Ed Davis is nearly at the same level after 1 year. Tim, I'm not sure you used 'games played' as the qualifier.. maybe just a simple oversight. I would have used minutes played (1500+) to illustrate "serviceable". I also added 8 points and 8 rebounds per 36, and sorted PF's by ascending order. Here's the result.

Obviously Tim Duncan tops the list, but Ed Davis is in there as a rookie as well. Amir is near the bottom. This list also shows why drafting a C shouldn't be a surprise to anyone (although I still disagree with the pick damnit!).

I'm not saying Amir doesn't need to continue to improve on his fouling. He obviously does. And I've never, ever said that he is a better prospect than Davis (in fact I've said the opposite). And, yes, I did used games played as a qualifier, otherwise you get guys who have played just a few games, which isn't a big enough sample size.

And on that list, Amir is just below guys like DeJuan Blair and Serge Ibaka, two starters on contenders.

[SCass]

I think most people are in favour of Davis over Amir, simply because Davis has more potential. The question is whether you keep those guys and trade Bargnani. My feeling is that if you want to win, you stick with the players that help win games. And that's Davis and Amir.

As for Amir's fouling rate, he fouled at, by far, the lowest rate of his entire career. And it got better as the season went on. Not sure why you say it's not going down any time soon. It HAS gone down. And there were plenty of very serviceable big men who fouled at a higher rate, including Shaq, Derrick Favors, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Timofey Mozgov, Robin Lopez, Jermaine O'Neal and DeMarcus Cousins.

Yet again, it seems highly unlikely, according to the new coaching staff and management, that we will be trading Bargnani this offseason. At this point, there's not much of a point in, again and again, repeating your argument. The post was about trading Davis or Amir.

And I said that I don't THINK that Amir's fouling rate will go down anytime soon because watching him play, he still has nights where he can't stay on the court to save his life. He was great in some games last season, but in others he just seemed lost. I don't know if we will ever be able to count on him giving us 30-35 mins per game when he is so inconsistent.

[ebrian]

As for Amir's fouling rate, he fouled at, by far, the lowest rate of his entire career. And it got better as the season went on. Not sure why you say it's not going down any time soon. It HAS gone down. And there were plenty of very serviceable big men who fouled at a higher rate, including Shaq, Derrick Favors, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Timofey Mozgov, Robin Lopez, Jermaine O'Neal and DeMarcus Cousins.

Amir's been in the league for 5 years and has slowly improved his foul rate but he still has a long, long way to go. Favors, Mozgov and Cousins were rookies, Shaq is retired and played sparingly last year, and Jermaine and Ilgauskas are not too far behind.

Amir is serviceable, yes, but Ed Davis is nearly at the same level after 1 year. Tim, I'm not sure you used 'games played' as the qualifier.. maybe just a simple oversight. I would have used minutes played (1500+) to illustrate "serviceable". I also added 8 points and 8 rebounds per 36, and sorted PF's by ascending order. Here's the result.

Obviously Tim Duncan tops the list, but Ed Davis is in there as a rookie as well. Amir is near the bottom. This list also shows why drafting a C shouldn't be a surprise to anyone (although I still disagree with the pick damnit!).

[Tim W.]

I hope Amir, Andrea, and Ed remain Raptors for 2011-12 season.

I don't see the need to discuss who will eventually be traded when it's uncertain Jonas will be ready to start in 2012-13. It's possible he could be the first or second big off the bench in his rookie season.

I do believe a big will eventually be traded but I think it will be more a "this is the price to pay to obtain player X" type decision than a "let's trade him and see what we can get".

If all three of those guys are power forwards, which seems to be the case, then obviously someone has to go, especially if the Raptors go out and get a starting center, even if he's only a 20 mpg one. And then there's Alabi, who might be ready for 15 mpg, this season. There's simply not enough minutes to go around.

[Hugmenot]

I hope Amir, Andrea, and Ed remain Raptors for 2011-12 season.

I don't see the need to discuss who will eventually be traded when it's uncertain Jonas will be ready to start in 2012-13. It's possible he could be the first or second big off the bench in his rookie season.

I do believe a big will eventually be traded but I think it will be more a "this is the price to pay to obtain player X" type decision than a "let's trade him and see what we can get".

[Tim W.]

I would definitely favor keeping Ed over Amir. Ed has better size, length, athleticism, and basketball IQ (Amir's fouling rate doesn't appear to be going down anytime soon). Plus, I think he will eventually add some skill to his game.

I think most people are in favour of Davis over Amir, simply because Davis has more potential. The question is whether you keep those guys and trade Bargnani. My feeling is that if you want to win, you stick with the players that help win games. And that's Davis and Amir.

As for Amir's fouling rate, he fouled at, by far, the lowest rate of his entire career. And it got better as the season went on. Not sure why you say it's not going down any time soon. It HAS gone down. And there were plenty of very serviceable big men who fouled at a higher rate, including Shaq, Derrick Favors, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Timofey Mozgov, Robin Lopez, Jermaine O'Neal and DeMarcus Cousins.

[Apollo]

Joel and Nazr are two realistic options at center. Both would help off the bench. Both could start when injuries hit.

[SCass]

I would definitely favor keeping Ed over Amir. Ed has better size, length, athleticism, and basketball IQ (Amir's fouling rate doesn't appear to be going down anytime soon). Plus, I think he will eventually add some skill to his game.

The biggest hole in the current roster is obviously center, and outside of Joel Pryzbilla, I don't see anyone else really fitting the team's needs (in terms of a short-term, hole-plugging solution which doesn't require us having to pay 10 million per in free agency).

But looking at Colangelo's active offseason history, I think the most likely solution will come by trade. We have too many PFs, and either Amir or Ed would likely fetch a good center.

I'm thinking Kaman plus a pick for Amir? However, I would also like to see the Raps go after a guy who they can eventually trade away, getting something back in return -- essentially a rental center.

Oden?

[Tim W.]

tho he did draft big val which was pretty surprising everything considered. maybe we've entered a new era of "i don't give a fuck" BC.

I really don't understand why people were surprised with the pick. At all. I'm still astounded that people said they were surprised. A center everyone thought would be picked earlier dropped. The absolute biggest positional need of the Raptors is the center. His strengths are the Raptors weaknesses. Why was this surprising?

[enlightenment]

big val and ed with bargs coming off the bench is pretty hot but theres no way bc lets his prized #1 pick come off the bench.

Even to let his prized 5th and 13th draft steals shine?

[optifan]

Personally, I would be most open to trading Amir.

JV, Ed and Bargnani all have different styles of games, that provide a coach with multiple lineup looks and mismatches. I would really like to see that 3-man big rotation under Casey (IF he can get Bargnani to commit to playing D and not let him get away with being lazy).

As has been discussed in other threads, I think Amir duplicates Ed's game. Although Amir is young, he has played several years in the league already and his body has taken a lot of abuse, he still fouls too much to stay on the court enough to log starters minutes and his game hasn't improved enough all around to be a true starting PF (and he's too small to play C). I like Amir, I love his hustle, but he would be my first pick to be traded, before JV, Ed and Bargnani.

+1

[ceez]

tho he did draft big val which was pretty surprising everything considered. maybe we've entered a new era of "i don't give a fuck" BC.