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Sports Illustrated Top 20 Free Agents 2011: Raptors (Joeys) Likely Interest Level.

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  • #31
    joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Pryzbilla or Jeff Foster..? I'm not even sure either Jeff Foster or JP count as a 'Stopgaps'.
    They'll be 35 and 32 years old and played a combined 30 mins a game last year while Starting 12. Combined.

    I'd rather just put Alabi in there and admit we're looking to Tank.
    They were injured last season, but hopefully you get the gist of what I am saying. A veteran who will come cheaply, can defend his position, rebound and can play 20 mpg at a fairly decent level. And he can be a veteran presence for Alabi and Valanciunas when he comes. Someone the guys can play against in practice and maybe learn a few tricks. Plus, he's not going to demand big minutes down the road.

    Just off the top of my head, guys like Jamaal Magloire, Erick Dampier, Dan Gadzuric etc. Big men have a longer shelf life than smaller players, so I wouldn't be too worried about age, with one of these guys.

    Throwing Alabi in there for 20-25 mpg is probably not a good idea at this point. I don't think it would do him any favours.

    You think we can trade an Un-Servicable Center, for a Servicable Center AND a draft pick in one of the Top Drafts ever?[/QUOTE]

    I think the Raptors need to find out what they can get for him before they start spending money. Maybe they can package a couple of players, who knows. Maybe they can work out a three way. The point is that it's a good idea to find out if you NEED to spend money on a position you might be able to get without spending money.
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    • #32
      ezz_bee wrote: View Post
      I'm not sure i agree. I think that a rotation of Bargs Amir Davis at 28-30 minutes a game with alabi getting 6-12 will be good enough to get us through next season (if there is one). If you add a Center how many minutes are you expecting to give him? I'd be okay with getting another body, and i agree that cheap value is better than expensive value at this point. But it would have to be with the understanding that they are behind bargs davis amir (and then val when he gets here) in terms of minutes. Not sure you can convince anyone decent to come here in that situation. I think we just need to add a body as insurance and length of contract doesn't need to be more than 1 w/ a team option for year 2.
      Oh okay, well I mean 4 years if there IS a season, and 3 years if there isn't. Even if JV is ready to be starter in 2 years, you still need someone to play between 15-20 minutes, and I think it's a gamble to rely on Alabi as that guy. Oh, I guess I should also clarify that Bargnani needs to be traded. My mindset is that he's already gone, but unfortunately mind is not over matter in this case. He is a $10M player who should not be playing more than 20 minutes per game because he's really that bad at everything else. I don't want this to become another Bargs thread though, so I'll end there. I'll even add Bargnani in the breakdown to confuse the Bargnani lovers.

      So here's the (minutes) breakdown:

      C: FA (28), Bargnani {10}, Alabi (10), Davis (10),
      PF: Bargnani {30}, Davis (25), Johnson (23)
      your pal,
      ebrian

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      • #33
        j bean wrote: View Post
        At what position does this club say we are set with a championship caliber player and we have no need to trade or acquire a FA for that spot? There isn't one.
        If the objective is to improve at every position there is no time like the present to get started and I would always acquire the best player available. That means better competition from within which is one of the keys to developing the potential in younger players.
        Fully agree j bean.

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        • #34
          A lot of the opinions are probably different because they have a different outlook on the best way to build the team.

          Let me position myself:

          - No tanking for the sake of tanking. If you just want to tank to get the highest draftpick you will lose a lot in terms of developing the talent already there. Btw if that was the plan, we could have kept Triano.

          - Start teaching (and playing the right way)!
          --- Get some veterans who can be extra coaches, as well on the court as in the dressingroom and in the training. For that purpose (and others) I'd be very high on Battier (if he would want to play here). Lots of games we were all over the court (in a bad way) with our defense. If we don't start improving on this all the wrong patterns and instincts will not only not be changed but imprinted even more, making it even harder to improve the defense the next year. For example: we NEED DD to improve defensively to make an impact in the long run. Good veteran defenders could really help with this.
          --- Don't get hang up on accountability alone. You want your players to want to play the right way without looking over their shoulders all the time when they make a mistake. If they are committed to playing the right way, you'll have to allow them to make mistakes. Accountability (in terms of of playing time - which is punishment) is only one element of teaching and there are lots of players for whom benching isn't effective at all. The same goes for better competition from within. Some players are more sensitive than others and need trust more than competition and fear of losing a starting job or playing time. It can be a usefull element but that differs from player to player.
          --- Create a balanced team so you can play the right way. Even if the overall talent level won't be as high as you'd want, playing the right way allows the team to learn how to play the right way and develop the players the right way. For that purpose the most important additions to the team (in my opinion) would be a defensive center and some perimeter defenders who can hit the threepoint shot (players like Bowen; like ... not him of course, Battier).

          - Stay flexible financially. As long as we don't know what our core will be in the long run making big or semi-big free agency signings doesn't seem wise to me. If we get a lottery pick next year (and that's very likely) we should grab the best player available. Looking at the mockdrafts chances are that's going to be a sf or pg. If that's a sf I wouldn't want money invested in Jeff Green. That way we'll have money to invest in our worst positions once we'll have a better look at the core longterm. Otherwise we could have e.g. a better backup at the center position than at the starting pg or sf position.

          So I would not want to sign Gasol or Jeff Green or any of the younger available (semi) high level talent who won't come cheap and will need longterm contracts. Cheap young talent (like Bayless and James Johnson) is ok; if they don't pan out they don't hurt the flexibility that much.

          I do want a stopgap at center (I'm working under the assumption - which not everyone share - that Bargnani will be kept and will not start at center as Casey said); someone who plays defense, can do some damage around the rim and has hustle and energy. Foster would be ok for me as would Gadzuric. They will be cheap and won't complain about playing time (as I'd top them out at 20 minutes a game and let the others fill in the other minutes at center; I think Johnson might be able to play as a backup center).

          I also want a veteran small forward who can defend and preferably shoot the three. (If don't we get more threepoint shooting from the guard positions we really need this.

          I do not want to make big changes to the guard positions unless we can really upgrade without hurting us in our flexibility. Of course I'd make exceptions for players like Chris Paul, but you know ... We got a good ballhandler whose contract expires after 2012/13 giving us flexibility from thereon forward and we got a player in Bayless who might or might not improve. I'd say we let him play and if he will not become good enough to start he might become a nice sixth man. We can let him walk after 2012/13 too if we'd want.
          Last edited by Soft Euro; Tue Jul 12, 2011, 06:39 PM.

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          • #35
            I really don't know where Dan Gadzuric is coming from. The last time he played more than 20 mins a game, it was 2004. And it was the ONLY time he played more than 20 minutes a game. What makes you think after getting 12, 11, 10, 14, 10 minutes a game respectively for the last however many seasons, NOW he is ready to step in and be a leader at one of the most important spots on the floor for a young, growing team.
            Yes, he will be cheap. You are right about that, but thats all he will be.
            Again, I think if you give Alabi the minutes that Gadzuric is going to play, he will be just as effective.
            Dans stats don't argue otherwise.

            Magloire? Really? I mean it'd be cool because he's Canadian and all ... but .. Really?
            See my above comment about Alabi and Gadzuric.

            You think Dampier is going to leave Miami for Toronto?
            And .. still ... Dampier wouldn't be anywhere near my top choice.


            I am however, fully in favor of bringing in Battier, Soft Euro. Not sure he'd be interested in coming here. But thats neither here nor there. haha
            Last edited by Joey; Tue Jul 12, 2011, 09:48 PM.

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            • #36
              joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
              I really don't know where Dan Gadzuric is coming from. The last time he played more than 20 mins a game, it was 2004. And it was the ONLY time he played more than 20 minutes a game. What makes you think after getting 12, 11, 10, 14, 10 minutes a game respectively for the last however many seasons, NOW he is ready to step in and be a leader at one of the most important spots on the floor for a young, growing team.
              Yes, he will be cheap. You are right about that, but thats all he will be.
              Again, I think if you give Alabi the minutes that Gadzuric is going to play, he will be just as effective.
              First of all, Gadzuric is Dutch (like me) and I'd like to have the only dutchman left (Elson seems out) in the NBA with the Raptors. So that's a big reason for me plugging him
              But besides that, I always liked his game and think it would suit what the Raptors need. In what he does well, he's generally been very effective if you look at per 36 stats. You can say that he only plays defense (except if you count offensive rebounds and putbacks); so if we'll keep Bargnani and start him at PF and start someone else at center it should be someone in that category (or pay up). Our starting center does not need to be a 'starting center' caliber player and do all things well. Unless the coaching staff and management thinks that Alabi can become a good player in this league (which I don't, but I can't really make a good judgement about it) I'd rather have them bring in a veteran for some more veteran defensive leadership which we don't have at all (as in zero, nada). Also, 15-20 minutes would be enough for our new starting center when we get a cheap veteran.

              By the way, I'd thought 'let me look up some nice Gadzuric videos on Youtube,' but the first highlight that came up was about him having problems getting his shoe on...

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              • #37
                joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                I really don't know where Dan Gadzuric is coming from. The last time he played more than 20 mins a game, it was 2004. And it was the ONLY time he played more than 20 minutes a game. What makes you think after getting 12, 11, 10, 14, 10 minutes a game respectively for the last however many seasons, NOW he is ready to step in and be a leader at one of the most important spots on the floor for a young, growing team.
                Yes, he will be cheap. You are right about that, but thats all he will be.
                Again, I think if you give Alabi the minutes that Gadzuric is going to play, he will be just as effective.
                Dans stats don't argue otherwise.

                Magloire? Really? I mean it'd be cool because he's Canadian and all ... but .. Really?
                See my above comment about Alabi and Gadzuric.

                You think Dampier is going to leave Miami for Toronto?
                And .. still ... Dampier wouldn't be anywhere near my top choice.


                I am however, fully in favor of bringing in Battier, Soft Euro. Not sure he'd be interested in coming here. But thats neither here nor there. haha
                Gadzuric is a decent backup, which is what the Raptors need. Same for Magloire and Dampier (who probably won't be re-signed by the Heat). You don't WANT someone who will need to play more than 15-20 mpg, because when Valanciunas comes next year he'll be lucky to get half that. Look at Kurt THomas on Chicago. At 38 years old he stepped in and started at center for half the season on the leagues top team. If he plays next season, he'll probably average 10 mpg.

                As for bringing in Battier, it's a nice idea, but how many minutes is he going to play, and what happens next year if the Raptors end up drafting a SF, which is the most likely scenario? You'r going to have to overpay Battier to get him to Toronto, then after a season, you're going to stick him on the bench and ask him to play 20 mpg, while making starter money? What's the point in that?
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                • #38
                  I'm thinking that we are in more need of a SF filler for the next season. Until Kleiza comes back from injury, whenever that is, we basically only have James Johnson at the 3. If JuJu isn't coming back, then I think we should target a defensive 3 that can also provide leadership (as mentioned, Battier). Assuming Battier would likely opt for a championship-contender, who would we consider?
                  Tayshaun?
                  Maurice Evans?
                  Yi Jianlian (gasp)?
                  Kirilenko?

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                  • #39
                    I didn't see your post before I made mine Tim.. do you think bringing a guy like JuJu back on the cheap would be more worthwhile if we do, in fact, draft a SF?

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                    • #40
                      JYFelony wrote: View Post
                      I didn't see your post before I made mine Tim.. do you think bringing a guy like JuJu back on the cheap would be more worthwhile if we do, in fact, draft a SF?
                      I agree that he SF position is probably one they need to fill out, since James Johnson is pretty much the only SF on the roster who will be ready to play. Of course, if the season doesn't start until January or later, then that point is moot, since Kleiza should be ready to return. Even still, I'd rather bring back Wright than sign a guy like Prince or Kirilenko, both of which you'll have to pay starter money to in order to sign.
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                      Follow me on Twitter.

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                      • #41
                        Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        As for bringing in Battier, it's a nice idea, but how many minutes is he going to play, and what happens next year if the Raptors end up drafting a SF, which is the most likely scenario? You'r going to have to overpay Battier to get him to Toronto, then after a season, you're going to stick him on the bench and ask him to play 20 mpg, while making starter money? What's the point in that?
                        It doesn't have to be Battier, but we need the right right veterans for this group and he is the best example I can think of. Just young talent generally doesn't cut it (with perhaps a few exceptions in very mature young players).

                        But to answer your questions about Battier. It will tough to get him to buy into Toronto as a destination, but he seems to enjoy working with a young group and to teach them. I read somewhere he is considering to become a highschool teacher after his basketball career and that added to my image of him. I don't think he is the type of player who needs to win a ring badly and for that reason needs to go to a contender. Not to say that there won't be lots offers from contenders and he might very well end up with one.

                        About the money: I don't think we need to overpay him if we can 'sell' him on the Raptors, he'll want marketvalue but I doubt he'll make his decision on a few million more or less. But maybe he will. I don't know much (if anything) about salaries and the way they can be structured, but maybe we can give him a frontloaded contract if that helps flexibility. He wants to play for another 3/4 years so let's give him those years with a frontloaded contract starting at about 5-6 million. That's below average starter's salary I assume.

                        About the minutes: he has already come out and said he doesn't need 40 minutes and doesn't need to be a starter. So after starting (at least) the first season as a sf he can move into a backup position if we draft a sf in 2012. As a backup he won't be restricted to playing sf because of his defensive diversity. He can also defend the sg (and pf) position and we don't have a good backup for that position as well. He can still get about 25 minutes. I don't consider that sticking to the bench.

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                        • #42
                          As awesome as it would be to have a character guy that still has a few good years left, Battier will be sought after by teams like San Antonio and the Lakers to make a push for a championship. Like you said Soft Euro, he doesn't need a ton of minutes, or a starting position. So why wouldn't he go to a contender and get that instead of coming to T.O. to play behind James Johnson? It simply wouldn't make sense

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                          • #43
                            Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                            It doesn't have to be Battier, but we need the right right veterans for this group and he is the best example I can think of. Just young talent generally doesn't cut it (with perhaps a few exceptions in very mature young players).

                            But to answer your questions about Battier. It will tough to get him to buy into Toronto as a destination, but he seems to enjoy working with a young group and to teach them. I read somewhere he is considering to become a highschool teacher after his basketball career and that added to my image of him. I don't think he is the type of player who needs to win a ring badly and for that reason needs to go to a contender. Not to say that there won't be lots offers from contenders and he might very well end up with one.

                            About the money: I don't think we need to overpay him if we can 'sell' him on the Raptors, he'll want marketvalue but I doubt he'll make his decision on a few million more or less. But maybe he will. I don't know much (if anything) about salaries and the way they can be structured, but maybe we can give him a frontloaded contract if that helps flexibility. He wants to play for another 3/4 years so let's give him those years with a frontloaded contract starting at about 5-6 million. That's below average starter's salary I assume.

                            About the minutes: he has already come out and said he doesn't need 40 minutes and doesn't need to be a starter. So after starting (at least) the first season as a sf he can move into a backup position if we draft a sf in 2012. As a backup he won't be restricted to playing sf because of his defensive diversity. He can also defend the sg (and pf) position and we don't have a good backup for that position as well. He can still get about 25 minutes. I don't consider that sticking to the bench.
                            It's not as if the Raptors are devoid of veteran talent. Calderon and Barbosa are two good veterans who take their job seriously and are good teammates. Reggie Evans is a guy whose enthusiasm and hard working attitude is contagious. I don't think it would take much to re-sign him. Hell, Amir Johnson has been in the league 5 years. If that's not a veteran, I don't know what is.

                            I really don't think the Raptors are in desperate need of more veterans.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                            • #44
                              JYFelony wrote: View Post
                              As awesome as it would be to have a character guy that still has a few good years left, Battier will be sought after by teams like San Antonio and the Lakers to make a push for a championship. Like you said Soft Euro, he doesn't need a ton of minutes, or a starting position. So why wouldn't he go to a contender and get that instead of coming to T.O. to play behind James Johnson? It simply wouldn't make sense
                              Several reasons: some contenders won't have any money. Others will not be looking to give a 4 year contract because their competitive years left are even shorter (e.g. Celtics or Spurs) before they need to rebuild. Other contenders are set at the sg/sf starter and backup position (Thunder e.g.). And, as I wrote, I seriously wonder if Battier is the kind of player who goes ringchasing. He might have more fun with a younger team. Than again, he might sign with a contender but it's not just about getting Battier, it's about getting the right veterans.

                              Btw: he would not play behind James Johnson, but in 2012 behind our probable sf-draftpick. He would start in 2011 (whenever that might be).

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                              • #45
                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                It's not as if the Raptors are devoid of veteran talent. Calderon and Barbosa are two good veterans who take their job seriously and are good teammates. Reggie Evans is a guy whose enthusiasm and hard working attitude is contagious. I don't think it would take much to re-sign him. Hell, Amir Johnson has been in the league 5 years. If that's not a veteran, I don't know what is.

                                I really don't think the Raptors are in desperate need of more veterans.
                                By emphasizing right veterans i meant veterans who would be exemplary of the 'new' culture management and Casey want to build. Our veterans are, without exception, not great defensive leaders. And I think whether or not 5 years is enough to be called a veteran is up for debate. But that's about terminology; with veterans I mean players who are passed the top of their game and entering the final stage of their playing career. For Amir Johnson I hope the best is yet to come.

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