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Sports Illustrated Top 20 Free Agents 2011: Raptors (Joeys) Likely Interest Level.

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  • #46
    I agree that Battier is likely not of the "ringchaser" nature, but I still think he would prefer going to a championship organization. But ya, I see what you're saying, it's not really about Battier. I just think the organization would benefit more in the long run by keeping a cheaper defensive guy, like Wright (despite his awful jumper), for the year and then see where the ping-pong balls land. Next year, regardless of the lockout, is probably going to be similar to this one.

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    • #47
      Soft Euro wrote: View Post
      By emphasizing right veterans i meant veterans who would be exemplary of the 'new' culture management and Casey want to build. Our veterans are, without exception, not great defensive leaders. And I think whether or not 5 years is enough to be called a veteran is up for debate. But that's about terminology; with veterans I mean players who are passed the top of their game and entering the final stage of their playing career. For Amir Johnson I hope the best is yet to come.
      I understand what you're saying and agree to a point. I'm all for changing the dynamics of the team, but I think grabbing a veteran that you'll have to overpay is going in the wrong direction. That's why I'd try and get a couple of older bench players who won't demand minutes or a big paycheque is the way to go. As I said, a guy like Battier is simply too good and will not only have to be paid well, but would demand minutes. That's what I don't want.
      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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      • #48
        Soft Euro wrote: View Post
        Several reasons: some contenders won't have any money. Others will not be looking to give a 4 year contract because their competitive years left are even shorter (e.g. Celtics or Spurs) before they need to rebuild. Other contenders are set at the sg/sf starter and backup position (Thunder e.g.). And, as I wrote, I seriously wonder if Battier is the kind of player who goes ringchasing. He might have more fun with a younger team. Than again, he might sign with a contender but it's not just about getting Battier, it's about getting the right veterans.

        Btw: he would not play behind James Johnson, but in 2012 behind our probable sf-draftpick. He would start in 2011 (whenever that might be).
        If given a choice, I would think Battier would rather go to a contender than a lottery team. He's been on bad teams for most of his career. I'd love to see him on a true contender, and I think he would to.

        As for money, there may be an MLE or even sign and trade possibilities, so contenders might still have a good chance of signing him unless you overpay him, something I said would be a mistake (for a lottery team). Besides, either Battier is a ring chaser or a guy who goes after the money. Which is better?
        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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        • #49
          Soft Euro wrote: View Post
          Several reasons: some contenders won't have any money. Others will not be looking to give a 4 year contract because their competitive years left are even shorter (e.g. Celtics or Spurs) before they need to rebuild. Other contenders are set at the sg/sf starter and backup position (Thunder e.g.). And, as I wrote, I seriously wonder if Battier is the kind of player who goes ringchasing. He might have more fun with a younger team. Than again, he might sign with a contender but it's not just about getting Battier, it's about getting the right veterans.

          Btw: he would not play behind James Johnson, but in 2012 behind our probable sf-draftpick. He would start in 2011 (whenever that might be).
          If given a choice, I would think Battier would rather go to a contender than a lottery team. He's been on bad teams for most of his career. I'd love to see him on a true contender, and I think he would to.

          As for money, there may be an MLE or even sign and trade possibilities, so contenders might still have a good chance of signing him unless you overpay him, something I said would be a mistake (for a lottery team). Besides, either Battier is a ring chaser or a guy who goes after the money. Which is better?
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
          Follow me on Twitter.

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          • #50
            Tim W. wrote: View Post
            If given a choice, I would think Battier would rather go to a contender than a lottery team. He's been on bad teams for most of his career. I'd love to see him on a true contender, and I think he would to.

            As for money, there may be an MLE or even sign and trade possibilities, so contenders might still have a good chance of signing him unless you overpay him, something I said would be a mistake (for a lottery team). Besides, either Battier is a ring chaser or a guy who goes after the money. Which is better?
            He played with Houston and Mephis. In his rookie year he had a fellow rookie in Pau Gasol. From their 3th year on they were a winning team. Battier never was on a team with a losing season since. Of course that does not mean Mephis was a contender, but Houston was for a couple of years (i assume he was there when they had that 22-win streak, don't remember when that was); injuries got the better of them. Bad teams might be a bit over the top... But only a couple of years were with a serious contender yes.

            I don't agree that there are only two options, Battier is either "a ringchaser or a guy who goes after the money." There might also be other reasons to join an organisation or stay with an organisation.

            Besides that, overpaying might not always be bad (for a lottery team). If you overpay in a way that it doesn't hurt your flexibity there is no problem at all with overpaying. The Collison example is by far the best I know: 2010-11: $13,270,000 (Upped from $6.75 million with a signing bonus of slightly more than $6.5 million); 2011-12: $3,272,997 (First year of extension); 2012-13: $2,929,332; 2013-14: $2,585,668; 2014-15: $2,242,003. Besides, if you pay him 2 million more instead of paying Kleiza, that would be a huge improvement for not a lot of money.

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            • #51
              Tim W. wrote: View Post
              I understand what you're saying and agree to a point. I'm all for changing the dynamics of the team, but I think grabbing a veteran that you'll have to overpay is going in the wrong direction. That's why I'd try and get a couple of older bench players who won't demand minutes or a big paycheque is the way to go. As I said, a guy like Battier is simply too good and will not only have to be paid well, but would demand minutes. That's what I don't want.
              So, if you now agree with my point of getting the right veterans, I'll give you the point that going after Battier (for the right role and the right money) would probably be useless. So, who do we target instead?

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              • #52
                ebrian wrote: View Post
                Doesn't that in turn mean that Memphis will grossly overpay him?
                Not necessarily. Memphis will offer him $47-50 million over four years without question. If the Raptors were to sign him to an offer sheet for let's say $55 million/4 years then the Grizz will probably bite the bullet and match that as well. Toronto would have to get into the neighbourhood of paying him $15 million per season if they want a legit chance of prying him away from Memphis and then we'd be paying franchise money to a player that's not at the "franchise" level. That's not a good thing.

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                • #53
                  Those numbers are assuming the Rules of the Current CBA remain in place ... which is guarenteed not to happen.

                  I don't think we're going to see $15M Contracts for a LONG time.
                  Kobe and Lebrons are likely to be in the Range or $11M or $12M.

                  Also if there is a Hard Cap, or a variation of the Current Cap, Memphis is likely to be nearing it. According to HoopsHype, their Team Salary sits at $37M .. NOT including the $16M or whatever they just gave Randolph. I'm not sure they'll have the capability to offer that kind of money. Or at least the kind that Toronto will be able to, having roughly $8M less commited to contracts.

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                  • #54
                    If salaries are going down that much it means that the cap is going to shrink as well. What that means is that we'll end up paying Gasol less in total but it will still burn up roughly the same percentage of our cap space so it won't give us any more financial flexiblity going forward. But you're right, it's tough to guage a lot of these numbers until the new CBA gets figured out. As it stands currently, teams have numerous benefits when trying to retain their own players and depending on what happens with those said rules, it could change this scenario quite a bit.

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                    • #55
                      Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                      He played with Houston and Mephis. In his rookie year he had a fellow rookie in Pau Gasol. From their 3th year on they were a winning team. Battier never was on a team with a losing season since. Of course that does not mean Mephis was a contender, but Houston was for a couple of years (i assume he was there when they had that 22-win streak, don't remember when that was); injuries got the better of them. Bad teams might be a bit over the top... But only a couple of years were with a serious contender yes.

                      I don't agree that there are only two options, Battier is either "a ringchaser or a guy who goes after the money." There might also be other reasons to join an organisation or stay with an organisation.

                      Besides that, overpaying might not always be bad (for a lottery team). If you overpay in a way that it doesn't hurt your flexibity there is no problem at all with overpaying. The Collison example is by far the best I know: 2010-11: $13,270,000 (Upped from $6.75 million with a signing bonus of slightly more than $6.5 million); 2011-12: $3,272,997 (First year of extension); 2012-13: $2,929,332; 2013-14: $2,585,668; 2014-15: $2,242,003. Besides, if you pay him 2 million more instead of paying Kleiza, that would be a huge improvement for not a lot of money.
                      That's quite true about Battier's teams. I've just never been a fan of any of them and not one of them has been a contender, which is the type of team I think he should be on. I wouldn't be surprised if he stays with Memphis, but the only way he'd come to Toronto is if you overpaid him. No one WANTS to come to a bad team, especially one that is completely void of All-Star talent.

                      And Collison was massively overpaid before Presti took over the team. The only reason it has not hurt them is because his big contract didn't overlap with the young players new contracts (Durant's new contract would start this summer). The lower amount is part of a new contract extension, because he knew he wouldn't get anywhere near the money of his old contract.

                      My guess is that you'd have to pay Battier, at least, $8-10 million to sign with Toronto. That's not a bad deal on the surface, but it would be, at least, a 4 year deal, and be on top of Kleiza's contract (which you're not getting rid of). With the Raptors paying Bargnani nearly $10 million and Calderon nearly $10 million, plus the fact that DeRozan would be getting his new contract during that period. That's a team that is paying out a lot of big contracts that might not even make the playoffs. That's getting into dangerous territory. It's my feeling that you want as much financial flexibility as possible while you're a lottery team.
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                      Follow me on Twitter.

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                      • #56
                        Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        My guess is that you'd have to pay Battier, at least, $8-10 million to sign with Toronto. That's not a bad deal on the surface, but it would be, at least, a 4 year deal, and be on top of Kleiza's contract (which you're not getting rid of). With the Raptors paying Bargnani nearly $10 million and Calderon nearly $10 million, plus the fact that DeRozan would be getting his new contract during that period. That's a team that is paying out a lot of big contracts that might not even make the playoffs. That's getting into dangerous territory. It's my feeling that you want as much financial flexibility as possible while you're a lottery team.
                        $10M a year for Battier?! For real?!

                        I very seriously disagree with this.

                        And as for the whole "you want as much financial flexibility while you're a lottery team", I'm not sure I understand this.
                        You are a huge advocate for maintaining Salary Flexibility, but you are against using said Flexibility to acquire ANY piece that would actually benefit the team long term. Until we become a good team, that is?

                        So you're basically saying allow our Current Group of Players, to become Mediocre/Good. Then when they are good, sign someone REALLY good.

                        But what I'm saying is why not acquire someone good now, and allow them ALL to develop, and become Mediocre (and eventually good and great) together.



                        Or is this all about, "Stay bad enough to get a draft pick."
                        Because if it is, I'm not sure there is anyone that we could sign this off season that would take us out of the Lottery.
                        And in Next Years draft, a Lottery pick is all you need to get someone GOOD.

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                        • #57
                          joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                          $10M a year for Battier?! For real?!

                          I very seriously disagree with this.

                          And as for the whole "you want as much financial flexibility while you're a lottery team", I'm not sure I understand this.
                          You are a huge advocate for maintaining Salary Flexibility, but you are against using said Flexibility to acquire ANY piece that would actually benefit the team long term. Until we become a good team, that is?

                          So you're basically saying allow our Current Group of Players, to become Mediocre/Good. Then when they are good, sign someone REALLY good.

                          But what I'm saying is why not acquire someone good now, and allow them ALL to develop, and become Mediocre (and eventually good and great) together.



                          Or is this all about, "Stay bad enough to get a draft pick."
                          Because if it is, I'm not sure there is anyone that we could sign this off season that would take us out of the Lottery.
                          And in Next Years draft, a Lottery pick is all you need to get someone GOOD.
                          I think you're underestimating Battier's value to contending teams. He's an incredibly unique player because he doesn't put up great stats, doesn't demand shots, but has one of the highest basketball IQs in the league and just helps you win. I don't think many teams are going to be offering $10 million for him, but I think that's what a 22 win team, like Toronto, is going to have to offer him in order to sign with them. If you had a choice to play for $6 million on a contender and $8 million on a 22 win team, which one are you going to choose? Personally, I'm going with the contender.

                          And I think having a big payroll on a lottery team is a bad idea. I've seen too many lottery teams over years start paying out big contracts and then end up never being able to do anything. And the big salaries ended up hurting what they could do to improve.

                          And the problem with signing someone good to become mediocre is that's most likely where you'll stay. Like it or not, even if you sign a guy like Thaddeus Young and he becomes an All-Star, there simply isn't enough talent on the Raptors to be anything more than mediocre. No matter how you spin it, their ceiling, even with a great free agent, is a second round team at best, and a borderline playoff team, at worst. That's a horrible place to be. Both Mark Cuban and Rich Cho have recently talked about how the worst place a team can be is in the 40-45 win area. Have you read this article...
                          http://basketball.realgm.com/blog/214274

                          It pretty much sums up what I think about the whole subject.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                          Follow me on Twitter.

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                          • #58
                            Tim W. wrote: View Post
                            And Collison was massively overpaid before Presti took over the team. The only reason it has not hurt them is because his big contract didn't overlap with the young players new contracts (Durant's new contract would start this summer). The lower amount is part of a new contract extension, because he knew he wouldn't get anywhere near the money of his old contract.
                            They really wanted to keep Collison (and in the playoffs i could see why). The 13 million was because Presti wanted to give him a new deal while not hurting them financially when they need to extend their young players. So he gave him a 6 million signing bonus and a frontloaded contract. Basically Collison got a new contract worth on average 4,5 million a year. That's 1,5 million less than the 4 years before 2011/12. If his salary is now around his marketvalue the 1,5 million more does not equal up to 'grossly overpaid'.

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                            • #59
                              Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              That's quite true about Battier's teams. I've just never been a fan of any of them and not one of them has been a contender, which is the type of team I think he should be on. I wouldn't be surprised if he stays with Memphis, but the only way he'd come to Toronto is if you overpaid him. No one WANTS to come to a bad team, especially one that is completely void of All-Star talent.
                              Suppose a player wants to go into coaching; wouldn't a young roster be a nice way to make the transition? General remark, not about Battier. I think there are many types of players and many different things that motivate them.

                              Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              My guess is that you'd have to pay Battier, at least, $8-10 million to sign with Toronto. That's not a bad deal on the surface, but it would be, at least, a 4 year deal, and be on top of Kleiza's contract (which you're not getting rid of). With the Raptors paying Bargnani nearly $10 million and Calderon nearly $10 million, plus the fact that DeRozan would be getting his new contract during that period. That's a team that is paying out a lot of big contracts that might not even make the playoffs. That's getting into dangerous territory. It's my feeling that you want as much financial flexibility as possible while you're a lottery team.
                              If you look at the salary of ringchasers you will find a lot of low (minimum) salaries because contenders are often capped out. So i'm not sure most contenders will offer him 6 million. They will persuade him with the chance at a ring.

                              If we have to pay more than 6 million we are not talking about him anymore.

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                              • #60
                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                And the problem with signing someone good to become mediocre is that's most likely where you'll stay. Like it or not, even if you sign a guy like Thaddeus Young and he becomes an All-Star, there simply isn't enough talent on the Raptors to be anything more than mediocre.
                                So then, according to your plan, the only Way for us to get better is to acquire an All-Star through the draft ... but then we still don't have enough talent to be anything more than Mediocre. It's the same outcome. No?
                                Ooo, unless we get TWO All-Stars in the draft. I get it now.

                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                No matter how you spin it, their ceiling, even with a great free agent, is a second round team at best, and a borderline playoff team, at worst. That's a horrible place to be. Both Mark Cuban and Rich Cho have recently talked about how the worst place a team can be is in the 40-45 win area. Have you read this article...
                                http://basketball.realgm.com/blog/214274

                                Two years ago Chicago was a Borderline Playoff team, just barely making it in, with a bunch of Big, Bloated Contracts and ONE borderline All-Star.
                                Now, even with having had those Brutal, Giant contracts, they are .. one of the best teams in the league.
                                I obviously understand that having Derrick Rose is a bonus, but no one knew two years ago he was going to be the MVP.

                                It IS possible to make the jump from Okay, to Good, to Great.
                                There is NOT only one way to build a successful team.
                                Multiple paths have been employed, and multiple paths have proven successful.

                                I understand you have your opinion on which path is best, but that does not mean that is what the Raptors will end up doing.
                                (Case in point, the article stating they are "Going Hard" after Chandler.)
                                Last edited by Joey; Wed Jul 13, 2011, 02:36 PM.

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