Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Trade one, Start one, and Second unit one

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    I still can't understand wanting to give away a 22 point a night scorer; more if we have muscle to protect him. I lnow his help defence sucks and his rebounding needs improvement. I truly believe this is the first coach we have that will make him accountable (at least that's my take). If his effort at least increases, he can get a couple of extra rebounds, giving him roughly Dirk's stats (now don't go getting angry, I'm not saying he's Dirk...). He can be a valuable piece moving forward and is a known commodity. We saw Ed for maybe half a season. Remember, he balked at his treatrment in the D-League (i.e. hotels, TV, etc.) so I'm not totally sure he will want to stay here. Maybe I'm mis-judging him, but it's too early to say!

    Comment


    • #17
      Amir is solid and is improving his foul-pronesness (is that a word???). He ROCKS and should stay!

      Comment


      • #18
        Man it would be very, very hard to continue watching this team if we chose Bargnani over Davis or Amir.

        Comment


        • #19
          Halifax Raps Fan wrote: View Post
          I still can't understand wanting to give away a 22 point a night scorer; more if we have muscle to protect him. I lnow his help defence sucks and his rebounding needs improvement. I truly believe this is the first coach we have that will make him accountable (at least that's my take). If his effort at least increases, he can get a couple of extra rebounds, giving him roughly Dirk's stats (now don't go getting angry, I'm not saying he's Dirk...). He can be a valuable piece moving forward and is a known commodity. We saw Ed for maybe half a season. Remember, he balked at his treatrment in the D-League (i.e. hotels, TV, etc.) so I'm not totally sure he will want to stay here. Maybe I'm mis-judging him, but it's too early to say!
          I'm not at all anti-Bargnani, but ehm, "giving him roughly Dirk's stats"? Dirk has a career rebound average of 8,4 (and 10,4 in the playoffs). Dirks has had 5 9+ seasons. For Bargnani to get Dirk's rebounding stats we'd have to clear the court of every other player and make him shoot long two's.

          Comment


          • #20
            Tim W. wrote: View Post
            Well, hell! Let's merge this thread to the Bargnani one and get a move on. Bargnani ain't going to trade himself!
            Actually laughed out loud! +1

            Comment


            • #21
              Halifax Raps Fan wrote: View Post
              I still can't understand wanting to give away a 22 point a night scorer; more if we have muscle to protect him. I lnow his help defence sucks and his rebounding needs improvement. I truly believe this is the first coach we have that will make him accountable (at least that's my take). If his effort at least increases, he can get a couple of extra rebounds, giving him roughly Dirk's stats (now don't go getting angry, I'm not saying he's Dirk...). He can be a valuable piece moving forward and is a known commodity. We saw Ed for maybe half a season. Remember, he balked at his treatrment in the D-League (i.e. hotels, TV, etc.) so I'm not totally sure he will want to stay here. Maybe I'm mis-judging him, but it's too early to say!
              I've already gone in to this ad naseum, but as you seem to have missed it, I'll repeat it.

              The notion that you can't "give up" Bargnani because he's a 20+ppg scorer is ridiculous. The league is ripe with guys who, given the right circumstances, can score 20+ppg. In another thread, I went back year by year and detailed players who had scored 20+ppg on bad teams, but weren't valuable enough for their team to keep. Guys like Ben Gordon, Mike James, Devon Harris and the best example, Corey Maggette. And there are other guys who, given the right circumstances, could average 20+ppg. Marcus Thornton is one. Why have none of them been considered part of the team enough to keep? Because despite being able to score, they simply don't help their teams win. Most of them are very poor defenders, don't score efficiently or simply don't do anything else well. That all describes Bargnani.

              The fact that Bargnani is a big man makes his defense all the more of a problem. You can't simply cover up poor defenders like Bargnani. Especially since his biggest weakness is help defense. He'll always be able to be exploited and will always hurt the team literally half the time he's on the court.

              As for grabbing a couple of extra rebounds, you're asking for a 25% improvement. And from someone who's NEVER shown an ability to rebound the ball consistently well. I simply don't see that being realistic.

              As for Davis, the guy complained about the accommodations in the D-League. I really don't understand what that has to do with him not wanting to stay a Raptor. You send Bargnani down there and I'm pretty sure he'd have the same reaction. Davis is already a more valuable player to the team than Bargnani, and has far more potential, because he can play both ends of the court.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
              Follow me on Twitter.

              Comment


              • #22
                RAPresenting wrote: View Post
                Actually laughed out loud! +1
                Thank you. I'm here all week!
                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                Follow me on Twitter.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Tim W. wrote: View Post
                  I've already gone in to this ad naseum, but as you seem to have missed it, I'll repeat it.

                  The notion that you can't "give up" Bargnani because he's a 20+ppg scorer is ridiculous. The league is ripe with guys who, given the right circumstances, can score 20+ppg. In another thread, I went back year by year and detailed players who had scored 20+ppg on bad teams, but weren't valuable enough for their team to keep. Guys like Ben Gordon, Mike James, Devon Harris and the best example, Corey Maggette. And there are other guys who, given the right circumstances, could average 20+ppg. Marcus Thornton is one. Why have none of them been considered part of the team enough to keep? Because despite being able to score, they simply don't help their teams win. Most of them are very poor defenders, don't score efficiently or simply don't do anything else well. That all describes Bargnani.

                  The fact that Bargnani is a big man makes his defense all the more of a problem. You can't simply cover up poor defenders like Bargnani. Especially since his biggest weakness is help defense. He'll always be able to be exploited and will always hurt the team literally half the time he's on the court.

                  As for grabbing a couple of extra rebounds, you're asking for a 25% improvement. And from someone who's NEVER shown an ability to rebound the ball consistently well. I simply don't see that being realistic.

                  As for Davis, the guy complained about the accommodations in the D-League. I really don't understand what that has to do with him not wanting to stay a Raptor. You send Bargnani down there and I'm pretty sure he'd have the same reaction. Davis is already a more valuable player to the team than Bargnani, and has far more potential, because he can play both ends of the court.
                  You make it sound as though your opinion is fact! lol The fact is, there are quite a few Raptors fans that think Bargnani is a valuable member of the team and has the potential to improve further.

                  First, I agree that of the 3 bigs under contract for this year, Davis should be the #1 keeper long-term.

                  However, I would much rather see the Raps trade Amir before Bargnani. The reasons behind my opinion include reasons why I would want to keep Bargnani and reasons why I think Amir is the most expendible.

                  BARGNANI
                  - will be just 26 next season and is finally playing under a defensive coach with proven results on the defensive end, with lots of room for improvement
                  - if moved to PF with a legit last-line-of-defense C playing beside him (stop-gap C the next couple years, then JV), his weak help defense will become much less of a problem (especially if they start a better defensive PG and DeRozan improves his defense at SG)
                  - I think his man defense is underrated, because he's been such a weak help-defense C; when he can concentrate more on man defense, knowing there is a defensive C backing him up, I think his confidence and success will be much better than last season
                  - I think rebounds can improve, just by putting in a bit more effort; I for one am not overly concerned with individual rebounding stats, so long as the team is getting the boards, but I think he can improve
                  - I think you're under valuing a consistent 20-25 pt threat, who can create serious mismatches on the offensive end; there is an intangible benefit for the entire team that his mismatches create that don't show up in any statistical category, plus I think with a better shooting team you'd see his assist numbers go up (he is a smart player and I think he's an underrated passer)
                  - thinking long-term, JV is a defensive C with a purely inside game offensively and Davis is your hustle/banger at PF on both ends of the floor; I think Bargnani's finesse game and ability to pull the defense out and spread the floor will be a fantastic compliment to JV/Davis as a 3-headed monster frontcourt for the Raptors

                  AMIR
                  - I love his hustle, heart and determination, but at the end of the day, I just don't think he's that good (from watching every game the past several seasons), nor do I think he has significant room to improve his game
                  - I think his defense is overrated and the quality of his defense went down along with his decreased foul-rate
                  - he has very little offensive game and the opposition has no respect for a very inconsistent mid-range game, meaning he can't spread the floor and will be crowding the offensive paint alongside JV/Davis
                  - I just think his game is too much a duplication of Davis' and having JV, Davis and Amir is just too much repetition of the same skillsets; yes this team needs more hustle, defense and rebounding than it's had in the past, but you need to have a balance of skills - the influx of defensive oriented bigs is done with JV/Davis, so overall I think Amir has become redundant and expendible
                  - I also think his contract is attractive for a team looking for a proven backup PF, who can play 25 mins a night, meaning he should have some decent trade value
                  - blue-collared PF who play 20-25 mins a night and average 10 pts / 8 rebounds are far easier to come by (either veterans or through drafts) than C/PF who have the ability/potential to spread the floor and average 25 pts / 6 rebounds... part of the expendibility comes down to supply & demand (especially now that you have 2 good young bigs in JV/Davis, who have primary skillsets focussed on defense/rebounding to play alongside that scoring C/PF)


                  Overall I think a team is most successful when they have a good variety of skillsets to call upon. When looking at the C and PF positions, I believe that a future lineup of JV/Davis/Bargnani offers much more balance, versatility and combinations with different looks, than a lineup of JV/Davis/Amir does. A team won't be successful with 3 finesse players any more than it would be successful with 3 bangers; JV/Davis/Bargnani offers a good mix of both, with combinations that could cause all sorts of matchup nightmares for opposing teams. Against certain teams, the Raps could even go with a huge frontcourt, where Bargnani plays SF on the court with both JV & Davis, when he can matchup at SF against the likes of Turkoglu, Kirilenko, Vessley, etc...
                  Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Jul 15, 2011, 03:28 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    The difference between Bargnani's offense and Amir's is that the points that Amir gets are super efficient and bargnani's points aren't.

                    Amir: .608 TS% and .568 eFG%.
                    Bargnani: .533 TS% and .480 eFG%.

                    Now you can point out that Bargs was the focal point of others teams defense, and that is why his efficiency is down from last year but even his MOST EFFICIENT seasons (when bosh was the focus) bargs was only around .555 TS% and .518 eFG%. That's good, it really is, but it is not GREAT.

                    Bargnani made 9mill this season, and from research that I've done he's worth about that. You think barg's will improve? Great! He BETTER, because if he puts up these numbers @ 11 or 12 mill which is what he'll be making the season after the lock out and his final year.

                    It's great that a good help defender will make up for Bargs when guards penetrate. But there are two problems:

                    1) Who is the help defender when a play is run through the the guy that you designated "help defender"? Especially because the "help defender" will likely be guarding the other teams best big man (aka reggie guarded Dwight Howard not Bargs) I think there will be cases where the guy you've designated as the help defender won't be able to leave his man as he is guarding the guy on the other team you don't want to leave.

                    In reality

                    2) Everyone has to rotate, everyone during the course of a game has to be the "help defender" you can never really hide a player. I think that even the guys on the mavs who were bad "man to man" defenders, were capable of playing good "team defense" maybe casey will help bargs get better in this area, but again, he kind of has to. Otherwise there's no way bargs is earning his contract.
                    Last edited by ezz_bee; Fri Jul 15, 2011, 03:50 PM.
                    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee Dec. 2014

                    "I guess I got a little carried away there" ~ ezzbee Apr. 2015

                    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      I'm in favour of trading Bargs, starting Amir, and putting Davis on the bench.

                      Ultimately the problem with Bargnani is that he doesn't want to play defense. You cannot force a player to do something - just look at Allan Iverson as an example. If the guy doesn't want to do something he won't. BC (finally) is changing the culture of the team. In order to buy into the culture the team's 'alpha-dog' must be the guy that rallies the troops.

                      Sadly, Bargnani is the alpha-dog. He's the go to guy on offense, and will get the last shot if the game is close. Bargnani had a chance to show everyone what he can do as an alpha last year, but he scored a good number of points and that's all. You need a lot more from your go to guy. The team is not going to buy into a defensive culture if its 'best player' is not going to do that. The only thing that Casey can do is bench him, but isn't that what Sam ended up doing? That didn't really work out did it?

                      And the idea of putting Bargnani on the bench as a sixth man makes sense in theory. But when he's going to be making $11 or $12 million dollars, do you really want your sixth man to make that much coin, especially in a new CBA where the cap will probably shrink?

                      As for Davis and Amir. Amir was the guy on our team last year that played defense like it mattered. His reward should be to be a starter in the league. He is the guy that the Raptors should be looking up to, and playing like. I just don't want to see a guy like Amir start sulking because he has to come off the bench when he was the best Raptor last year. Sure his foul rate needs to come down, but that one deficiency shouldn't prevent him from starting. Davis can play a lot of minutes for his development, but doesn't need to be a starter to achieve that.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        You make it sound as though your opinion is fact! lol The fact is, there are quite a few Raptors fans that think Bargnani is a valuable member of the team and has the potential to improve further.
                        The thing I stated that were facts were. Everything else is what I stated. And the problem is that the vast majority of advanced stats say that not only isn't Bargnani a valuable member of the team, he actually contributes to losses.

                        CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                        First, I agree that of the 3 bigs under contract for this year, Davis should be the #1 keeper long-term.

                        However, I would much rather see the Raps trade Amir before Bargnani. The reasons behind my opinion include reasons why I would want to keep Bargnani and reasons why I think Amir is the most expendible.

                        BARGNANI
                        - will be just 26 next season and is finally playing under a defensive coach with proven results on the defensive end, with lots of room for improvement
                        - if moved to PF with a legit last-line-of-defense C playing beside him (stop-gap C the next couple years, then JV), his weak help defense will become much less of a problem (especially if they start a better defensive PG and DeRozan improves his defense at SG)
                        - I think his man defense is underrated, because he's been such a weak help-defense C; when he can concentrate more on man defense, knowing there is a defensive C backing him up, I think his confidence and success will be much better than last season
                        - I think rebounds can improve, just by putting in a bit more effort; I for one am not overly concerned with individual rebounding stats, so long as the team is getting the boards, but I think he can improve
                        - I think you're under valuing a consistent 20-25 pt threat, who can create serious mismatches on the offensive end; there is an intangible benefit for the entire team that his mismatches create that don't show up in any statistical category, plus I think with a better shooting team you'd see his assist numbers go up (he is a smart player and I think he's an underrated passer)
                        - thinking long-term, JV is a defensive C with a purely inside game offensively and Davis is your hustle/banger at PF on both ends of the floor; I think Bargnani's finesse game and ability to pull the defense out and spread the floor will be a fantastic compliment to JV/Davis as a 3-headed monster frontcourt for the Raptors

                        AMIR
                        - I love his hustle, heart and determination, but at the end of the day, I just don't think he's that good (from watching every game the past several seasons), nor do I think he has significant room to improve his game
                        - I think his defense is overrated and the quality of his defense went down along with his decreased foul-rate
                        - he has very little offensive game and the opposition has no respect for a very inconsistent mid-range game, meaning he can't spread the floor and will be crowding the offensive paint alongside JV/Davis
                        - I just think his game is too much a duplication of Davis' and having JV, Davis and Amir is just too much repetition of the same skillsets; yes this team needs more hustle, defense and rebounding than it's had in the past, but you need to have a balance of skills - the influx of defensive oriented bigs is done with JV/Davis, so overall I think Amir has become redundant and expendible
                        - I also think his contract is attractive for a team looking for a proven backup PF, who can play 25 mins a night, meaning he should have some decent trade value
                        - blue-collared PF who play 20-25 mins a night and average 10 pts / 8 rebounds are far easier to come by (either veterans or through drafts) than C/PF who have the ability/potential to spread the floor and average 25 pts / 6 rebounds... part of the expendibility comes down to supply & demand (especially now that you have 2 good young bigs in JV/Davis, who have primary skillsets focussed on defense/rebounding to play alongside that scoring C/PF)


                        Overall I think a team is most successful when they have a good variety of skillsets to call upon. When looking at the C and PF positions, I believe that a future lineup of JV/Davis/Bargnani offers much more balance, versatility and combinations with different looks, than a lineup of JV/Davis/Amir does. A team won't be successful with 3 finesse players any more than it would be successful with 3 bangers; JV/Davis/Bargnani offers a good mix of both, with combinations that could cause all sorts of matchup nightmares for opposing teams. Against certain teams, the Raps could even go with a huge frontcourt, where Bargnani plays SF on the court with both JV & Davis, when he can matchup at SF against the likes of Turkoglu, Kirilenko, Vessley, etc...
                        I really don't understand why people cling to the notion that Bargnani's defense will be hidden if he's moved to PF. First of all, PFs have to defend the basket as much as centers do. The two positions are just about interchangeable, in the NBA.

                        Secondly, for all intent and purposes, Bargnani DID play PF this year. He rarely defended the better front court player, regardless of position, and even in the zone Bargnani was on the wing. He played beside players whose strengths were Bargnani's weaknesses, and when he played beside Amir and Davis, he played beside rebounding shotblockers who were supposed to be the last line of defense. And none of that helped. His defense was still a problem.

                        If anything, his man defense is overrated, because his fans keep bringing it up as a strength. Overall, it's not good. As I've said many times, he's decent in certain circumstances against certain types of players. What he does on defense is basically stand and not react, which is great is someone simply tries to back up down and shoot over him, or tries a lot of fakes, because he's not going to fall for them. Unfortunately, he has bad footwork, doesn't react well when he needs to and isn't good at anticipating moves. He also doesn't box out very well, so his man gets a lot of offensive rebounds. Against PFs, he would struggle a lot more defensively because he's not good at defending faceup big man and doesn't have the quickness to stay with anyone fast.

                        You may think his rebounding can improve, but we've been hearing that for 5 years, and his rate of rebounding has never improved very much in the five years and actually got worse this year. There is literally no indication he can improve his rebounding. You might as well say that you think Amir can become a 20 ppg scorer. Neither statement has any evidence to back it up whatsoever.

                        A 20-25 ppg scorer (by the way there's a big difference between a 20 and 25 ppg scorer) is great, especially one that creates mismatches. But at what cost? Corey Maggette is better, more efficient scorer than Bargnani is, but I don't think any Raptor fans want him on the team.

                        As for Amir, I think you're vastly undervaluing what he does. Athletic big man who defend, rebound, hustle and score as efficiently as he does are not nearly as common as you seem to think. Especially ones that seem to help the team win as much as Amir does. This past season, Amir was the most productive Raptor and when you look at advanced stats he's MUCH better than Bargnani. And he's younger than Bargnani. I'm not sure why you think that Amir has peaked.

                        The thing is when you look at Championship teams over the years, most of them have guys like Amir on it. There's a reason for that. Amir is the type of guy who doesn't everything you need him to, doesn't need coddling and is productive whether he plays 20 mpg or 30 mpg.

                        Bargnani is definitely a unique player, but that doesn't necessarily mean that's a good thing. Why would you want a guy who NEEDS to be held accountable in order to do the basics, like rebounding and defense? To me, that's asking for trouble. Especially when the payoff isn't really that big. While he's a good scorer, he's not a great one. He was the number one option on the team last year, took 18 shots per game, yet scorer 21 ppg. He was the least efficient scorer in the top 20. That says to me the only reason he was able to score what he did was because he was on a bad team.
                        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                        Follow me on Twitter.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Tim W. wrote: View Post


                          I really don't understand why people cling to the notion that Bargnani's defense will be hidden if he's moved to PF. First of all, PFs have to defend the basket as much as centers do. The two positions are just about interchangeable, in the NBA.
                          Bargnani's OPP PER as a C was 21.1.

                          Bargnani's OPP PER as a PF was 31.8.

                          *ugh*

                          http://www.82games.com/1011/10TOR19.HTM#bypos

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            Bargnani's OPP PER as a C was 21.1.

                            Bargnani's OPP PER as a PF was 31.8.

                            *ugh*

                            http://www.82games.com/1011/10TOR19.HTM#bypos
                            Wow. That's just astounding. I knew the numbers would back me up on this, but, just wow.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              if it was a perfect world...
                              id trade amir since he probably has currently the highest trade value of the 3
                              start ed and bench bargs and make him earn his minutes by playing defense and rebounding when he's on the floor

                              in an ideal world...
                              id start amir since he is the most efficient of the three
                              bench davis trade bargnani

                              in my world.....
                              trade bargnani
                              split time between ed and amir

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                Bargnani's OPP PER as a C was 21.1.

                                Bargnani's OPP PER as a PF was 31.8.

                                *ugh*

                                http://www.82games.com/1011/10TOR19.HTM#bypos
                                im really not a numbers guy so i really dont believe in the PERs (although i should), but i do look at things plainly, like a rebound is a rebound, a block is a block, point is a point, etc etc.

                                i just think there are way too many variables when it comes to the PER. there are way too many "it depends" situations when calculating the PER. but if you guys can explain it, maybe i can be a believer, hehe.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X