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DeMar DeRozan's Potential

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  • #31
    Quixotic wrote:
    Maybe you should actually read the post (and the ones that preceded it) and try again.
    He read the bolded part. Geez, what do you want???
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    • #32
      Tim W. wrote: View Post
      He read the bolded part. Geez, what do you want???
      Blah, I had to delete my post.

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      • #33
        Brandon wrote: View Post
        Any pick in next year's draft is good enough for me.
        I think DeRozan is promising, but certainly with lots of improvement needed, but I'm glad you're not GM. Any of next year's picks for DeRozan? Dallas/LA/Miami/SA would like to take you up on that offer.

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        • #34
          I just read the whole conversation and I couldn't believe all the sh*t Brandon said. Just wanted to say that, so good night everybody!

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          • #35
            charlesnba23 wrote: View Post
            I just read the whole conversation and I couldn't believe all the sh*t Brandon said. Just wanted to say that, so good night everybody!
            ya he has pretty pointless arguments.

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            • #36
              NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
              ya he has pretty pointless arguments.
              Seriously is this Brandon guy even a Raptors fan....I mean he's basically saying " let's make it seem like the only guy on our team who isn't a scrub and likes Toronto is actually someone who will never lead us to the playoffs because he can't iso.....so let's trade a 2nd year player who averages 18 points for some pick, like bro he might not be Kobe or MJ, but he plays some solid bball, but my point is STFU.

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              • #37
                er1csh3n wrote: View Post
                Seriously is this Brandon guy even a Raptors fan....I mean he's basically saying " let's make it seem like the only guy on our team who isn't a scrub and likes Toronto is actually someone who will never lead us to the playoffs because he can't iso.....so let's trade a 2nd year player who averages 18 points for some pick, like bro he might not be Kobe or MJ, but he plays some solid bball, but my point is STFU.
                Wow, good argument.

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                • #38
                  Brandon wrote: View Post
                  Wow, good argument.
                  Thanks bro, means a lot

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                  • #39
                    Tim W. wrote: View Post
                    He's never going to be Kobe, but he doesn't need to be. He doesn't need to be Paul Pierce. Richard Hamilton made a very nice career for himself without much of an ability to create for himself. Hell, Reggie Miller has a Hall of Fame career and he couldn't create a shot.
                    He does need to be as good as those guys to really matter on the court. Basketball games aren't won by rotation guys having nice careers. They are won by superstars. They are won by the upper 10% of the league's players.

                    Here's my argument, put as simply as I can: If a team doesn't have at least one of those guys, they might as well not have anything. They might as well run 12 drunken fans out there every night. A team of 12 drunken fans can lose 60 games. Demar DeRozan is not one of those upper 10% guys, and he never will be. The skills necessary to be that thing are genetic and happen pre-birth. Given that you, Tim, have already conceded that he will not be that great, and that he will do no better than having a "nice career", they might as well trade him and try to get lucky in the draft. Maybe a low first round pick will turn into a player like Rondo. It happens. It is a lot easier to bring in players who will have nice careers than it is to bring in a guy who can singlehandedly take a team from a 60-loss nightmare into a high playoff seed. Mark Cuban understands this. He's said that, when Dirk retires, Cuban will gut the team and lose as many games as he can until he drafts another superstar he can build around.

                    San Antonio 1988-89 record: 21-61. David Robinson joins the team.
                    San Antonio 1989-90 record: 56-26. Goes 2 rounds in the playoffs.

                    Lakers 1978-79 record: 47-35. Draft Magic Johnson.
                    Lakers 1979-80 record: 60-22. Capture championship.

                    Celtics 1978-79 record: 29-53. Draft Larry Bird.
                    Celtics 1979-80 record: 61-21. Lost NBA Eastern Conference Finals (4-1).

                    Celtics 2006-07 record: 24-58. Trade most of team for Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen.
                    Celtics 2007-08 record: 66-16. Capture championship.

                    Raptors 2008-09 record: 33-49. Draft Demar DeRozan.
                    Raptors 2009-10 record: 40-42. Missed playoffs.
                    Raptors 2010-11 record: 22-60. Lost 60 games.

                    To everybody reading this who thinks DeRozan, or maybe another Raptors player, can develop into a superstar: That is what your enemy, the Raptors/MLSE front office, wants you to think. If you harbour such ill-conceived ideas, they don't have to work as hard to gain your interest and loyalty. If completely uncritical acceptance of the team's marketing b.s., is what it means to be a 'real fan', count me out. It's not actually DeRozan's fault he is being so overrated, it's the front office, for pushing the idea on the local market. I am in fact not criticizing DeRozan personally at all, only explaining that it's unfair to expect so much of a middling, back-of-the-rotation talent.

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                    • #40
                      I saw what you did there:

                      Players only improve a bit each year until they're 30 -> players become what they are in the minors (it applies to baseball so it obviously applies to basketball as well) -> players become what they are pre-birth.

                      Hmm...


                      You forgot something important while typing out a bunch of irrelevant stats. Paul Pierce led the Celtics to a 24-58 record. They should probably have traded him as 12 drunken fans could probably pull that off as well.

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                      • #41
                        Quixotic wrote: View Post
                        I saw what you did there:

                        Players only improve a bit each year until they're 30 -> players become what they are in the minors (it applies to baseball so it obviously applies to basketball as well) -> players become what they are pre-birth.

                        Hmm...
                        Precisely. Being an NBA Champion is like being Gay. You're just born that way.



                        So I guess at this rate, it's safe to say Lebron will NEVER win one, if he hasn't somehow willed his team to one by now.. right? (He couldn't even get his team into the playoffs as a Rookie. What an Average Loser.)

                        Or Karl Malone wasn't all that good because he clearly couldn't just make a Championship appear due to his greatness.

                        Or Kevin Garnett not being able to do it in Minni, must surely prove that he is actually inferior and simply Average, until combined with "Prime Movers" Paul Pierce and Ray Allen.

                        Or Rajon Rondo having a pretty below average first year, only to become a bigger Superstar than "the Big 3". Fascinating.

                        I could poke holes in this all day.
                        Last edited by Joey; Mon Aug 1, 2011, 04:23 PM.

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                        • #42
                          Brandon,

                          I understand your argument, and agree in principle. Without an elite player, your team has almost no chance of being a true contender. Unfortunately that seems to be the only part we agree on.

                          Right now, in my opinion, there isn't one player on the team that I foresee becoming an elite talent. Does that mean they should gut the team and trade them all for draft picks in order to better the chance of finding an elite talent? No. That's a little ridiculous. Yes, a contender needs a superstar, but it also needs other pieces, too. Dirk didn't win until he had the right talent around him. LeBron still hasn't won.

                          Tim Duncan doesn't win multiple Championships without Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. And those guys aren't a dime a dozen.

                          And what you seem to be forgetting is that Larry Bird joined a team that already had a lot of talent on it. Same with Magic and Duncan. And you're conveniently forgetting all the great players that joined bad teams and didn't make much of an impact because he didn't have decent surrounding talent. What's the point of drafting an elite player if you may not be able to keep him because there simply isn't enough talent on the team?

                          What makes the most sense to me is to collect pieces and keep the ones that you can see winning a Championship with. To me, that means guys like Ed Davis and Amir Johnson. I'm not entirely convinced DeRozan is one but i'm also not convinced he isn't. Either way, you don't simply get rid of him for a draft pick. That's not making very good use of your assets. Now if the Raptors have the chance to draft a franchise player next year and have to give up DeRozan to do it, then you probably do it, especially if that's the only way to get one. but simply trading him for a draft pick when you have absolutely no idea where that pick might be is a horrible move. Especially when DeRozan's value will only increase over the next couplle of years.

                          Now if the Raptors draft an elite player next year and have to make some changes in order to compliment him well, then you obviously do that. But trading guys simply BECAUSE they aren't elite talent is not a good strategy.
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                          • #43
                            Brandon wrote: View Post
                            To everybody reading this who thinks DeRozan, or maybe another Raptors player, can develop into a superstar: That is what your enemy, the Raptors/MLSE front office, wants you to think. If you harbour such ill-conceived ideas, they don't have to work as hard to gain your interest and loyalty. If completely uncritical acceptance of the team's marketing b.s., is what it means to be a 'real fan', count me out. It's not actually DeRozan's fault he is being so overrated, it's the front office, for pushing the idea on the local market. I am in fact not criticizing DeRozan personally at all, only explaining that it's unfair to expect so much of a middling, back-of-the-rotation talent.
                            Derozan is overrated? WHAT!!!!!! I have lived all my life as a Raps fan and lived throughout the US and Toronto, when I ask people about the Raptors, they think I'm talking about the dinosaurs, we're the team that overpays scrubs and players in retirement,they think derozan is a ghetto black guy, the only person they know is Bargnani, because B. Lopez and him rebound like it's covered with used condoms. Derozan is underrated to most of the basketball world, he IS a player capable of being a legit option on a championship team, if stats mean that much to you, find me another swingman that averaged 18 points while shooting BELOW 10% from downtown.....your arguments are so pessimistic, it's like talking to a suicidal crack user

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                            • #44
                              Brandon wrote: View Post
                              Wow, good argument.
                              like yours are any better...

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                              • #45
                                Do we consider Kevin Durant to be elite level talent?

                                Seattle 2006-2007 record: 33-48. Move and draft Kevin Durant
                                Thunder 2007-2008 record: 20-62
                                Thunder 2008-2009 record: 23-59

                                Just saying ...


                                On another note, a few of the DeRozan defenders begin to sound a lot like Bargnani fanatics. I feel a sticky 'Everything DeRozan' thread coming soon...

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