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  • #31
    Fully wrote: View Post
    As you so kindly pointed out for me, the NBA season hasn't started yet. I've even heard rumblings that the NBA is in the midst of a lockout. I look forward to your next post where you can either confirm/deny this for me.

    Because of these facts though, the only thing I have to go by at this point in time is what Colangelo said at his end of the season presser, which was the following: 1) Andrea is miscast as a five 2) He's going to play the power forward spot next season for us and 3) we're going to go after a defensive big man to help with Bargnani's defensive shortcomings.

    Are any of these three things guaranteed? Of course not. Maybe none of them will happen, maybe they all will. But please don't act like I'm taking a blind leap or faith or completely talking out of my ass by taking what was said by the president/GM of the franchise during a nationally televised press conference and using it to make some logical deductions.


    I'm impressed by your copy and paste skills but what point of mine are these supposed to dispute exactly? I just got finished saying that Derozan and Bargnani both got similar opportunities during their first two seasons in Toronto.

    Bargnani was given the same opportunities that DD has gotten these past two seasons when he first arrived with the team, and I don't recall anyone being upset about it at the time. However he's been here five seasons now and hasn't improved his rebounding or defence a lick. In fact, you can argue that it's gotten worse.

    I don't feel like re-typing my last message so I suggest you go read it again.
    This will be my last post to you as you obviously have no idea what the discussion was about. It started as you were suggesting he has had things handed to him and that the franchise has accommodated him and the result of this has been a steady decline in wins.

    I simply said I disagreed and didn't see it that way based on comparisons to other highly drafted players by the organization. The lack of moves to accommodate is a another obvious reason why your comment seems flawed. See the bold in your post for what is being said not happened so why bring it up as some fact to validate your post? What about BC looking to get another first rounder how many times... Has that ever happened? So why bring it up?

    For the last time remember what the discussion is about before getting so defensive. It really didn't warrant half a dozen posts from either one of us.

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    • #32
      Macc wrote: View Post
      He was 3rd option in the Atlantic division championship team and that's when he was a rookie.
      Bargnani was the 4th leading scorer (barely above Juan Dixon), played 25 mpg and only started 2 games. And Toronto won a VERY weak Atlantic Division and got bounced in the first round. Let's not overstate his role or the success of the team, please.
      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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      • #33
        ATT wrote: View Post
        Then name me 30 power forwards in the league who are better..?
        It depends on what you mean by "better". Can I name 30 PFs that will help their team win more than Bargnani? I could probably name 40, including Amir and Davis. Can I name 30 who are more "skilled"? No, not in a traditional sense. Of course that doesn't account that fact that you can count rebounding, defense and hustle as skills. And I do.

        You can argue all you want about how he can score and can create mismatch problems and all that. But he's not a very efficient scorer and in the end, he has a negative effect on the team when he's on the floor. In the end, that's the most important thing, in my opinion. If a player doesn't help you win, who cares how much he scores?
        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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        • #34
          Tim W. wrote: View Post
          It depends on what you mean by "better". Can I name 30 PFs that will help their team win more than Bargnani? I could probably name 40, including Amir and Davis. Can I name 30 who are more "skilled"? No, not in a traditional sense. Of course that doesn't account that fact that you can count rebounding, defense and hustle as skills. And I do.
          That what I meant, when I was constructing my list. (I think I forgot to put Lewis and Horford on it, too.) Bargnani is a remarkably skilled player, but it's all for naught when he so ineffective.

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          • #35
            YoungGuns wrote: View Post
            I think we would be alot better of a team if we trade Bargs for a real SF ... I'd be happy to watch:
            PG: Jerryd Bayless
            SG: DeMar DeRozan
            SF: Trade for Bargs
            PF: Ed Davis or Amir Johnson
            C: Jonas Valanciunas

            I could get behind that team just to see if we could cause any damage ... all young and want to make a mark.
            Yeah, I feel the same. We throw Bayless in the fire to see if he's for real. Draft a SF with our high lotto pick. If Bayless fails, then move Bargnani + protected 2012 pick for Kabongo/Rivers/Teague + bad contract.

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            • #36
              c_bcm wrote: View Post
              Man. I usually agree with your posts, but this list is a bit ridiculous. You would take David Lee over bargs? C'mon. Charlie V? Mbah Moute?

              I understand you are trying to make a point, but this is forced and makes you look like a hater instead of a rationale critic
              For a PF, I value defense and rebounding more. Bargnani's historically bad at rebounding and a very poor defender. If he were put into the role of the role players on that list, he would still hurt the team, because his only asset in his offensive skills would be downplayed, while it being extremely unlikely that he gets better at rebounding and defense to offset that.

              Charlie V scores a bit more efficiently than Bargnani and is a much better rebounder.

              Mbah Moute is a far better rebounder, much better defender. He sucks on offense though, but it's still not as gaping as Bargnani's weaknesses.

              David Lee is one of the best rebounders in the league, and efficient with the offense he uses. He sucks on defense, but overall he's still better than Bargnani.

              If you wanted my list to be 30 players that you think are irrefutably better, then no, I can't make that list.

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              • #37
                RAPresenting wrote: View Post
                Bargnani
                06-07 TOR 65 2 25.1 0.427 0.373 0.824 0.8 3.1 3.9 0.8 0.5 0.8 1.65 2.77 11.6
                07-08 TOR 78 53 23.9 0.386 0.345 0.840 0.6 3.1 3.7 1.1 0.3 0.5 1.13 2.71 10.2

                Derozan
                09-10 TOR 77 65 21.6 0.498 0.250 0.763 0.9 2.0 2.9 0.7 0.6 0.2 0.81 2.29 8.6
                10-11 TOR 82 82 34.8 0.467 0.096 0.813 0.9 2.9 3.8 1.8 1.0 0.4 1.76 2.65 17.2
                What kind of bigman, PF or C shoots less than 40% from the field?

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                • #38
                  WhatWhat wrote: View Post
                  For a PF, I value defense and rebounding more. Bargnani's historically bad at rebounding and a very poor defender. If he were put into the role of the role players on that list, he would still hurt the team, because his only asset in his offensive skills would be downplayed, while it being extremely unlikely that he gets better at rebounding and defense to offset that.

                  Charlie V scores a bit more efficiently than Bargnani and is a much better rebounder.

                  Mbah Moute is a far better rebounder, much better defender. He sucks on offense though, but it's still not as gaping as Bargnani's weaknesses.

                  David Lee is one of the best rebounders in the league, and efficient with the offense he uses. He sucks on defense, but overall he's still better than Bargnani.

                  If you wanted my list to be 30 players that you think are irrefutably better, then no, I can't make that list.
                  On the point of irrefutable...ok fair enough. Nothing is irrefutable, especially on this site. It would be interesting to find a statistic (maybe one already exists) where you can weigh ability as a function of salary. Is Lee worth what he's being paid versus the aforementioned "'dre"...don't forget about 'dre.
                  Welp, that sucked.

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                  • #39
                    c_bcm wrote: View Post
                    On the point of irrefutable...ok fair enough. Nothing is irrefutable, especially on this site. It would be interesting to find a statistic (maybe one already exists) where you can weigh ability as a function of salary. Is Lee worth what he's being paid versus the aforementioned "'dre"...don't forget about 'dre.
                    WHat does a player's salary matter if he doesn't help your team win? I'd rather have, say, Joakim Noah at $15 million per season than Bargnani at $5 million a season because in the end one will help you win and one will not. That doesn't necessarily mean I'd pay any price for players, but, again, it all comes down to winning, not fielding the most cost effective players.
                    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                    Follow me on Twitter.

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                    • #40
                      Tim W. wrote: View Post
                      WHat does a player's salary matter if he doesn't help your team win? I'd rather have, say, Joakim Noah at $15 million per season than Bargnani at $5 million a season because in the end one will help you win and one will not. That doesn't necessarily mean I'd pay any price for players, but, again, it all comes down to winning, not fielding the most cost effective players.
                      well fukn said. Too often a players contract gets pulled into a discussion when it's not merited. You want '93 MJ @ x$ ( say 20 mill/year) or are you gonna front like Clyde the glide (one of my favs btw) at $5mill per is a better option?

                      If you bean counters are tripping lets just put it this way: 6 chips vs 0.

                      And if MJ wasn't balling then then CD woulda been the GOAT 2 guard of that era
                      Last edited by minks77; Sat Aug 13th, 2011, 01:52 AM.
                      LET'S GO RAP-TORS!!!!!

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