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  • #16
    I'm with Tim on this one.

    Amir/Ed/Jonas as a 3 man rotation is far more conducive to winning, than Andrea/Ed/Jonas. In my opinion anyway.

    What Bargnani would bring on the offensive side would be given right back to the other team, with his indifference to playing any type of Team Defense.

    Comment


    • #17
      i would package Amir + Calderon + Kleiza to Pistons for Hamilton + DET 1st round pick (Top 10 protected)

      We draft Q.Miller and Myck Kabongo and call it a draft in 2012, sign a Center and third string SF then call it a season

      2012-13 season
      Kabongo/Bayless/Barbosa*
      DeRozan/Hamilton/Weems
      Q.Miller/J.Johnson/3rd string SF
      Bargnani/E.Davis/J.Dorsey*
      Valanciunas/Center/S.Alabi

      Comment


      • #18
        CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
        I'm one of the people who have been in favour of trading Amir on a few other threads, but am certainly not clueless. I also agree with everything that you, Tim and others have said about Amir. I think a lot of people seem to almost take it personally when an alternative approach is pointed out, when it involves a player they like/appreciate. I want to stress that I've never had anything negative to say about Amir and/or his contract.

        For me, the only reason I would ever contemplate trading him is because in any deal, you have to give up talent to get talent. The Raptors are a team with lots of holes and the one position they are deep at in quality players is PF - Amir, Davis and Bargnani. I think Davis is going the be the best of the bunch on both ends of the court, plus he is young and under rookie contract, meaning he shouldn't go anywhere. Bargnani is one-dimensional and there are arguments against his efficiency at that one positive dimension (scoring), plus he's making over $10M per season, meaning I'm doubtful the Raptors would get good value back in a Bargnani deal. That leaves us with Amir. The positives have been spoken about already, which is why I think he is the best PF trade chip the Raptors have, to enable them to go out and make a deal to address other hole(s) in their roster for the long-term - be it player(s) and/or draft pick(s) coming back.

        So please don't paint anybody who entertains the option of trading Amir with your "clueless" brush. Please also don't assume that the rationale behind trading Amir is simply because those people think he has a bad contract, or isn't a good player/person or has a hardon for other more controversial players. The idea that Amir has the most trade value among the Raptor PFs should actually speak volumes about the type of player and person he is... that's why other teams would be expected to value him as a player they can utilize now, thereby giving up good young assets to help the Raptors address team needs at other positions for the future.
        Like you said this team is one filled with a lot of holes. I do not think the solution to filling these holes is to trade a player with 6 years NBA experience. For a player with 0 experience. That would just leave us with a larger hole. Amir was a late draft pick but he has shown multiple teams who passed on him they made a mistake. How bad do you think Detroit would want him back right now? How many rookies come into a season 100% ready? I am for rebuilding, that's only if it is necessary. I'd rather see where Amir can go given more minutes and plays.

        Just because you think it might be hard to trade a player like Andrea, which i disagree with, does not mean it can not be done. Look at Turk. What did we get back for him? A quality player who makes us better. Now imagine what we could get for Bargnani. I'm not saying to jump on the first offer we get. We should get the best possible deal done to make our team better. That is where you and I do not meet eye to eye. Sorry to call you clueless I just call it like I see it.

        I am with Tim and Joey and the rest of the sensible Raps fans out there.
        We all make mistakes... Tanking is not the answer.. This squad can ball! Let it roll!!

        Comment


        • #19
          tenforthewin wrote: View Post
          i would package Amir + Calderon + Kleiza to Pistons for Hamilton + DET 1st round pick (Top 10 protected)

          We draft Q.Miller and Myck Kabongo and call it a draft in 2012, sign a Center and third string SF then call it a season

          2012-13 season
          Kabongo/Bayless/Barbosa*
          DeRozan/Hamilton/Weems
          Q.Miller/J.Johnson/3rd string SF
          Bargnani/E.Davis/J.Dorsey*
          Valanciunas/Center/S.Alabi
          I think that's a horrible idea.

          Hamilton is washed up. Amir is part of this teams core moving forward IMO. Although I like Kabongo, I would think Bayless is our future PG at this point. We have barely scratched the surface with his game. He needs to start next season. Based on the last ten games of last season where he started. I don't know the exact numbers but i think he averaged 20+ points a game and 5+ assists. That is highly respectable. With Jose coming off the bench, he has shown to be capable of racking up 7-8 assists a night. That would be a highly potent backcourt. Jose is a team guy and I'm sure he understands where he is at in his career. He would be able to lead the second unit and do what he does best, facilitate. I think come 2012 Draft, we should either get Harrison Barnes or Andre Drummond.
          We all make mistakes... Tanking is not the answer.. This squad can ball! Let it roll!!

          Comment


          • #20
            tenforthewin wrote: View Post
            i would package Amir + Calderon + Kleiza to Pistons for Hamilton + DET 1st round pick (Top 10 protected)

            We draft Q.Miller and Myck Kabongo and call it a draft in 2012, sign a Center and third string SF then call it a season

            2012-13 season
            Kabongo/Bayless/Barbosa*
            DeRozan/Hamilton/Weems
            Q.Miller/J.Johnson/3rd string SF
            Bargnani/E.Davis/J.Dorsey*
            Valanciunas/Center/S.Alabi
            Where to begin....

            NO ONE is taking Kleiza in a trade because he has a career threatening injury and 4 years left on his contract. Trading Amir AND Calderon for a player well past his prime, causes problems in the locker room last season, and a pick outside of the top 10 is a bad deal for the Raptors.

            Keeping Bayless and drafting Kabongo is also probably not the best idea, unless you want a repeat of the TJ Ford/Calderon issue.

            Keeping Bargnani is basically saying you're not making defense a priority and thus, are not trying to build a Championship team. And starting him ahead of Ed Davis, who will be a much better player by the time is ridiculous.

            Other than that I don't have a problem.
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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            Comment


            • #21
              Tim W. wrote: View Post
              Where to begin....

              NO ONE is taking Kleiza in a trade because he has a career threatening injury and 4 years left on his contract. Trading Amir AND Calderon for a player well past his prime, causes problems in the locker room last season, and a pick outside of the top 10 is a bad deal for the Raptors.

              Keeping Bayless and drafting Kabongo is also probably not the best idea, unless you want a repeat of the TJ Ford/Calderon issue.

              Keeping Bargnani is basically saying you're not making defense a priority and thus, are not trying to build a Championship team. And starting him ahead of Ed Davis, who will be a much better player by the time is ridiculous.

              Other than that I don't have a problem.
              Dwelling a little off topic here, but I'd still find the idea of signing a good free agent center interesting. We could put a line-up out in 2012/13 with a FA center, JV at PF (which might be a good idea anyway because he really needs to get stronger if he's the main inside 'battler', DD at sg. That would leave Bargnani, Johnson and/or Davis with some of our other players as trade chips for an acceptable pg or sf and/or draft pick while keeping a solid big man of the bench and we draft a sf or pg with our own high draft pick. I believe that's the fastest way to getting a real good competitive line-up. (And yes, I haven't mentioned Bayless as I'm not a believer).

              If management decides to go another way and try out a line-up with Bargnani at PF and JV at center I'd be ok with that, but we can get real good real quick if we can get a good free agent center because we have some good assets.

              Comment


              • #22
                Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                Dwelling a little off topic here, but I'd still find the idea of signing a good free agent center interesting. We could put a line-up out in 2012/13 with a FA center, JV at PF (which might be a good idea anyway because he really needs to get stronger if he's the main inside 'battler', DD at sg. That would leave Bargnani, Johnson and/or Davis with some of our other players as trade chips for an acceptable pg or sf and/or draft pick while keeping a solid big man of the bench and we draft a sf or pg with our own high draft pick. I believe that's the fastest way to getting a real good competitive line-up. (And yes, I haven't mentioned Bayless as I'm not a believer).

                If management decides to go another way and try out a line-up with Bargnani at PF and JV at center I'd be ok with that, but we can get real good real quick if we can get a good free agent center because we have some good assets.
                I have a feeling I might have said something like this before, but if management is truly interesting in becoming a true contender, then they need to keep guys like Davis and Amir and trade guys like Bargnani. Or really Bargnani specifically. All this talk of whether he can play with a defensive center, or whether Cadsey can light a fire under him, or that he can create mismatches on offense ignores one important fact. When push comes to shove, he's not a guy you want "in your foxhole" because he doesn't like doing the dirty work. Even with his offense, you're going to have a tough time winning with him because the only thing important to him is scoring.

                That said, I'm really, really, REALLY, not okay with Bargnani being paired with anyone on the Raptors. He'll always end up hurting the team, and usually at the worst times.
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                • #23
                  Tim W. wrote: View Post
                  I have a feeling I might have said something like this before, but if management is truly interesting in becoming a true contender, then they need to keep guys like Davis and Amir and trade guys like Bargnani. Or really Bargnani specifically. All this talk of whether he can play with a defensive center, or whether Cadsey can light a fire under him, or that he can create mismatches on offense ignores one important fact. When push comes to shove, he's not a guy you want "in your foxhole" because he doesn't like doing the dirty work. Even with his offense, you're going to have a tough time winning with him because the only thing important to him is scoring.

                  That said, I'm really, really, REALLY, not okay with Bargnani being paired with anyone on the Raptors. He'll always end up hurting the team, and usually at the worst times.
                  In the first and largest part of my post I had Bargnani traded in case you didn't see that because of the B-word-trigger But let me clarify: at the moment I'm okay with the moves management has made since the start of last season; I like the way they are going. Now, if they decide to let Bargnani stay, I'm submissive enough ("calm and submissive" mr Millan) to not raise hell, but see how things play out. The main reason being that at the moment I'm confident they'd know better than some 'amateur-internet-expert' like me.

                  That being sad: I'd really like a line-up with a free agent center and JV at PF, Amir or Davis coming of the bench and trade the other one with Bargnani (and some other players) to get a sf/pg or draft pick. With our own draftpick I think we could put a really good team on the floor!

                  Now stop being triggerhappy about B-word sightings for once!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                    Dwelling a little off topic here, but I'd still find the idea of signing a good free agent center interesting. We could put a line-up out in 2012/13 with a FA center, JV at PF (which might be a good idea anyway because he really needs to get stronger if he's the main inside 'battler', DD at sg. That would leave Bargnani, Johnson and/or Davis with some of our other players as trade chips for an acceptable pg or sf and/or draft pick while keeping a solid big man of the bench and we draft a sf or pg with our own high draft pick. I believe that's the fastest way to getting a real good competitive line-up. (And yes, I haven't mentioned Bayless as I'm not a believer).

                    If management decides to go another way and try out a line-up with Bargnani at PF and JV at center I'd be ok with that, but we can get real good real quick if we can get a good free agent center because we have some good assets.
                    If there is a season, restraint is needed this off season. If the Raps could acquire another first round draft pick they could have a very nice core (JV, DD, ED, 2 first round picks) along with complementary pieces in Barbosa, (hopefully - injury recovered) Kleiza, JJ, Amir, (hopefully - live up to off season hype) Alabi, and (hopefully - resign to much more reasonable contract) Calderon to snag a top FA in 2012.

                    It might seem highly unlikely but if the Raps have cap space and all these young players (2012 draft will require a true star) and complimentary players Toronto could actually be a nice place for any player who can get over customs. BC did snag Nash from Dallas with best buddy Dirk in free agency and they had only won 29 games the year before.

                    Anyways, enough wet dreams for tonight.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                      In the first and largest part of my post I had Bargnani traded in case you didn't see that because of the B-word-trigger But let me clarify: at the moment I'm okay with the moves management has made since the start of last season; I like the way they are going. Now, if they decide to let Bargnani stay, I'm submissive enough ("calm and submissive" mr Millan) to not raise hell, but see how things play out. The main reason being that at the moment I'm confident they'd know better than some 'amateur-internet-expert' like me.

                      That being sad: I'd really like a line-up with a free agent center and JV at PF, Amir or Davis coming of the bench and trade the other one with Bargnani (and some other players) to get a sf/pg or draft pick. With our own draftpick I think we could put a really good team on the floor!

                      Now stop being triggerhappy about B-word sightings for once!
                      Unfortunately I'm physically unable to restrain myself when the B-word is mentioned. I'm on medication, but it's not helping. The worst thing is they're suppositories.

                      I'm very happy with the moves that Colangelo has made in the last year and a half (as well as the drafting of DeRozan), and while I do believe he knows more about basketball than I do, if he thinks Bargnani can be a part of the future of this team without sabotaging it, then I think he's just plain wrong on this one.

                      As for moving Valanciunas to PF and bringing in a free agent center, I'm not quite sure I see the point. Both Davis and Amir are more than capable PFs the Raptors already have under contract, and Valanciunas is a center, first and foremost. A frontcourt rotation of those three would be absolutely terrific, in my opinion. You've got 3 young, athletic big men with good intangibles, who hustle, defend, rebound, have good hands and are efficient offensively. And you can even mix and match them. Why you'd want to overpay a veteran center in order to be able to then trade those players for a SF or PG. If you're going to get a free agent, wouldn't it make sense to get a player at the position you need?
                      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                      • #26
                        Tim W. wrote: View Post
                        As for moving Valanciunas to PF and bringing in a free agent center, I'm not quite sure I see the point. Both Davis and Amir are more than capable PFs the Raptors already have under contract, and Valanciunas is a center, first and foremost. A frontcourt rotation of those three would be absolutely terrific, in my opinion. You've got 3 young, athletic big men with good intangibles, who hustle, defend, rebound, have good hands and are efficient offensively. And you can even mix and match them. Why you'd want to overpay a veteran center in order to be able to then trade those players for a SF or PG. If you're going to get a free agent, wouldn't it make sense to get a player at the position you need?
                        Ok, let me take you along in my line of thought, as it includes quite a few premises (allthough not all are logically indispensable). I’ll write them out to make it easier to argue. I’m doing this on the fly, so it might not be all as worked out as need be. This might come down to different views on the center position again, btw.

                        1. All contenders and the teams closing in have great size at the pf/c position (with the exception of Miami). (Size/wingspan – most numbers are from the draftcombine)
                        Thunder: Perkins (6’10”/7’4” or more) / Ibaka (6’10”/7’4”)
                        Memphis: Randolph (6’9”/? but reportedly big) / Gasol (7’1”/?)
                        Lakers: (not going to spell this one out)
                        Dallas: (two 7’+ guys with 7’2” wingspan at least)
                        Celtics: Garnett (6’11”/unreported, but I guess 7’3” at least) Perk.. (oops, worst trade of the year and no longer contending in my view)
                        Magic: …

                        2. Even though you can get somewhere in the east (and in the regular season), to contend you need to beat those teams and you need to be able to match up with that size and strength (or have two of the top-5-players in the league and a top-25-player).

                        3. One of the bigs (usually the one called ‘center’) needs to be able to bang inside.

                        a. At the moment, and probably when he comes over next year, Valanciunas gives up too much weight AND strength to be able to battle the better centers. It will take him some years to get to that level. (Again, this might not be a problem in the regular season, but it will be in a series against one of the above mentioned teams).

                        b. If we wait until our bigs can bang that might take much more time than is necessary (see 5)

                        4. If there is no season at all, combined with a new cap, there might be good possibilities on the FA market; the top teams might not have capspace to sign the freeagents that would normally want to go to a topteam, opening up possibilities for other teams and we will be a very good choice because of the potential.

                        5. Right now JV is more a PF than a center because he lacks strength(!)

                        6. It’s almost impossible to overpay a good two-way big. They are that rare, even Perkins or Nene, who aren’t all that two-way will be worth a lot in my opinion.

                        Conclusions/arguments:

                        Based on premise 3 it would be a good idea to position a stronger big next to Valanciunas to do the banging in his first couple of years (might take 2, might take 4, I don’t know). The same goes for Davis. Another possibility might be to start Davis and let JV come off the bench against the second unit.

                        Signing a freeagent center leaves more room for improvement at the other positions because we can use superfluous bigs as tradeassets and combine that with the draftpick (or draftpicks depening on the trade). We still can address our other needs; we even have more options to address those needs in the draft if we can get picks in return when we trade Amir or Davis + Bargnani + Calderon or Bayless.

                        I should not have mentioned Bargnani, why did I do that?
                        Last edited by Soft Euro; Wed Aug 24th, 2011, 12:48 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                          Lakers: (not going to spell this one out)
                          I suppose I disagree with your conclusion about JV because I don't hear anyone complaining about Noah's size and strength and he as show the ability to rebound, box out, get put backs etc. and is not as big as JV and weighs 10 pounds less. He is considered one of the best defensive centers in the game. I think it would great if JV added some weight and strength and by all accounts he is trying to. But I think the work ethic and drive he has will compensate for some size and strength in the same way that desire has for Noah.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            CT2010 wrote: View Post
                            I suppose I disagree with your conclusion about JV because I don't hear anyone complaining about Noah's size and strength and he as show the ability to rebound, box out, get put backs etc. and is not as big as JV and weighs 10 pounds less. He is considered one of the best defensive centers in the game. I think it would great if JV added some weight and strength and by all accounts he is trying to. But I think the work ethic and drive he has will compensate for some size and strength in the same way that desire has for Noah.
                            Noah is an interesting one. I must admit that I haven't seen much of Noah going up against the best centers this year, so I don't know how he matches up with them. Besides Dwight Howard there are not a lot of quality centers in the east he'll have dealt with. I also doubt he is 10 pounds less than JV (when was Noah's last weight for the 'official' numbers on nba.com?). He used to have problems with his strength, but apparently hasn't anymore.

                            Two other remarks: First of all weight isn't everything, strength isn't all weight. Mainly JV's lower body strength needs to improve quite a bit, I don't know how much that translates in weight, so I should have frased it differently. The second remark: out of the top of my head I can't come up with many other examples; Chandler isn't the heaviest, don't know about his 'real weight', but he has a lot more lower and upper body strength as well.

                            Work ethic and drive can only compensate so much; in a 7 games series you need strength (and hence arguably weight) if you're matched up with the premier big man.

                            Btw: does anybody know if players physical measurements are officially taken anytime during their career after the draft?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                              Ok, let me take you along in my line of thought, as it includes quite a few premises (allthough not all are logically indispensable). I’ll write them out to make it easier to argue. I’m doing this on the fly, so it might not be all as worked out as need be. This might come down to different views on the center position again, btw.

                              1. All contenders and the teams closing in have great size at the pf/c position (with the exception of Miami). (Size/wingspan – most numbers are from the draftcombine)
                              Thunder: Perkins (6’10”/7’4” or more) / Ibaka (6’10”/7’4”)
                              Memphis: Randolph (6’9”/? but reportedly big) / Gasol (7’1”/?)
                              Lakers: (not going to spell this one out)
                              Dallas: (two 7’+ guys with 7’2” wingspan at least)
                              Celtics: Garnett (6’11”/unreported, but I guess 7’3” at least) Perk.. (oops, worst trade of the year and no longer contending in my view)
                              Magic: …
                              Of the teams you mentioned as contenders, really only Oklahoma will be a contender by the time the Raptors can conceivably build one (unless Gay vaults into the top tier, I don't see Memphis becoming anything more than a slightly better Atlanta Hawks). Who knows what the makeup of teams will be by then.

                              Besides, while Amir and Davis don't have the wingspan of some of those above, wingspan isn't everything. Both Davis and Amir have excellent timing and are above average shotblockers.

                              Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                              2. Even though you can get somewhere in the east (and in the regular season), to contend you need to beat those teams and you need to be able to match up with that size and strength (or have two of the top-5-players in the league and a top-25-player).
                              Again, that may be how it presently looks. Who knows what it will look like in 5 years.

                              Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                              3. One of the bigs (usually the one called ‘center’) needs to be able to bang inside.

                              a. At the moment, and probably when he comes over next year, Valanciunas gives up too much weight AND strength to be able to battle the better centers. It will take him some years to get to that level. (Again, this might not be a problem in the regular season, but it will be in a series against one of the above mentioned teams).

                              b. If we wait until our bigs can bang that might take much more time than is necessary (see 5)
                              Whether you want to believe it or not, the Raptors are not going to be contending in the next 3 years. And, besides, Valanciunas, Davis and Amir are not shy about getting dirty down low.

                              Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                              4. If there is no season at all, combined with a new cap, there might be good possibilities on the FA market; the top teams might not have capspace to sign the freeagents that would normally want to go to a topteam, opening up possibilities for other teams and we will be a very good choice because of the potential.
                              A big `what if'. Who knows what the free agent scene will like like in the summer of 2012. What is likely, however, is that it will be easier to find a good free agent SF or PG than center.

                              Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                              5. Right now JV is more a PF than a center because he lacks strength(!)
                              Debatable. He's actually not as skinny as weak as was portrayed originally. Besides, right now Valanciunas isn't playing in the NBA. And it's a good bet that he'll probably put on 10-20 lbs over the next year, through simple maturation of his body. And he's already mentioned that he wants to get stronger.

                              Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                              6. It’s almost impossible to overpay a good two-way big. They are that rare, even Perkins or Nene, who aren’t all that two-way will be worth a lot in my opinion.
                              Saying and doing are two different things. What 2 way center is going to be a) available, b) willing to sign with Toronto and c) young enough that he's still going to be in his prime when the rest of the roster peaks in about 5 years?

                              Soft Euro wrote: View Post
                              Conclusions/arguments:

                              Based on premise 3 it would be a good idea to position a stronger big next to Valanciunas to do the banging in his first couple of years (might take 2, might take 4, I don’t know). The same goes for Davis. Another possibility might be to start Davis and let JV come off the bench against the second unit.

                              Signing a freeagent center leaves more room for improvement at the other positions because we can use superfluous bigs as tradeassets and combine that with the draftpick (or draftpicks depening on the trade). We still can address our other needs; we even have more options to address those needs in the draft if we can get picks in return when we trade Amir or Davis + Bargnani + Calderon or Bayless.

                              I should not have mentioned Bargnani, why did I do that?
                              As I said, the Raptors aren't going to be contending anytime soon, whether or not the Raptors sign a guy like Chris Kaman or Roy Hibbert. Valanciunas may give up some pounds initially, but making him defend PFs, which means defending the perimeter more, isn't going to help either him or the team. And what happens when he's physically ready to play the center position? Do you make another trade?

                              The Raptors already have Bargnani as a trade asset, as well as Barbosa. Unless you intend on completely remaking the roster, I don't see needing anymore.

                              Right now, I see the Raptors future frontcourt as their biggest strength. They are all young, athletic, with good intangibles and can defend, rebound and score efficiently. Why screw with that?
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                              • #30
                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                Of the teams you mentioned as contenders, really only Oklahoma will be a contender by the time the Raptors can conceivably build one (unless Gay vaults into the top tier, I don't see Memphis becoming anything more than a slightly better Atlanta Hawks). Who knows what the makeup of teams will be by then.
                                We differ off opinion on Memphis; if they can keep their team (which might be the problem) I see them absolutely as a contender. They played pretty well in the playoffs and didn't have a healthy Gay. They need some more focus on the defensive end, but that's very well possible with the players they have. I also expect the Lakers to be contending with either top talent going there or (and) Bynum getting healthy.

                                Btw I didn't mean that those teams would be the contenders in a few years, just what it seems to take to be contending. That might be different in a couple of years, I think it will not. But if the outlook of the topteams will change, it is my opinion that you will have a contender on your hand if you do have these type of players; that is: bigs that are good defensively or offensively and at least reasonable on the other end.

                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                Whether you want to believe it or not, the Raptors are not going to be contending in the next 3 years. And, besides, Valanciunas, Davis and Amir are not shy about getting dirty down low.
                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                A big `what if'. Who knows what the free agent scene will like like in the summer of 2012. What is likely, however, is that it will be easier to find a good free agent SF or PG than center.
                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                Saying and doing are two different things. What 2 way center is going to be a) available, b) willing to sign with Toronto and c) young enough that he's still going to be in his prime when the rest of the roster peaks in about 5 years?
                                I 'overshot' here; you are right that there won't be good two-way centers available (except the ungettable Howard). I'll have to tone it down to good one-way and acceptable other-way centers like Jordan, Nene, Gasol all of which might be gettable depending on the new CBA.

                                I also think when improvement can be seen because of the actions management takes our future will look much better and we will be a more attractive destination.

                                New additions don't all have to peak at the same time as the rest of our roster in my opinion. A good balance in age might even help a team (veteran leadership, youthfull energy, a more natural continuance in the quality of a team; in football (in Europe) balance in teams (not only old or young players but good balance - roughly 3 groups: newbies, prime, veterans) is something many teams strive for).

                                The fact that it's easier to get free agents for other positions is one of my problems. Again this has to do with my slight obsession with the rarity of good bigs and my belief that - because they are more available - pg's and sf's can be easier replaced via freeagency or the draft and that we should be really carefull not to overpay for those positions.

                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                Debatable. He's actually not as skinny as weak as was portrayed originally. Besides, right now Valanciunas isn't playing in the NBA. And it's a good bet that he'll probably put on 10-20 lbs over the next year, through simple maturation of his body. And he's already mentioned that he wants to get stronger.
                                Good point; we'll have to see.

                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                As I said, the Raptors aren't going to be contending anytime soon, whether or not the Raptors sign a guy like Chris Kaman or Roy Hibbert. Valanciunas may give up some pounds initially, but making him defend PFs, which means defending the perimeter more, isn't going to help either him or the team. And what happens when he's physically ready to play the center position? Do you make another trade?
                                For one, I think Valanciunas will be able to guard on the perimeter (at a reasonable level). When JV is ready, the rotation can change, a natural progression would be to have the center come off the bench for the last year or two of his contract or first year of a new contract.

                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                The Raptors already have Bargnani as a trade asset, as well as Barbosa. Unless you intend on completely remaking the roster, I don't see needing anymore.
                                I'm talking about more rosterchanges yes, close to remaking by using the 'assets' (BC-speak). In this scenario we'd only keep DD and Davis or Johnson of last year's roster. But I think a lot of people agree anyway that we need to change at pg, sf and c which means I'm only remaking one more position.

                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                Besides, while Amir and Davis don't have the wingspan of some of those above, wingspan isn't everything. Both Davis and Amir have excellent timing and are above average shotblockers.
                                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                                Right now, I see the Raptors future frontcourt as their biggest strength. They are all young, athletic, with good intangibles and can defend, rebound and score efficiently. Why screw with that?
                                I'm not as convinced about our frontcourt in Amir and Davis as you are. ('You know what we need? We need more cowbell!' comes up, but is this the place for SNL-references?). Part of their efficiency is because they don't shoot threes... I don't mean that literally, I mean that they are limited in what they do and for one, at the moment they don't space the floor enough (why did I bring up threes? That will only lead to people getting Bargnani images in their head!).

                                We need more from our bigs. I fully agree that a JV/Davis frontcourt can work in the future if at least one of them starts spreading the floor.

                                The main argument against it is that it will take more time to develop the team. They both need more strength and more range. I'm looking at ways to shortcut the development of the team. You mentioned that we won't be contending for years to come; I want to be contending quickly! (damnit).

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