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The Real Reason the Raps have Been Losing their Players

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  • The Real Reason the Raps have Been Losing their Players

    People always say that we lose our players because we are in Canada, but honestly, that's a bunch of baloney. This piece sums it up pretty well.

    http://www.rantsports.com/toronto-ra...ir-superstars/

  • #2
    Sure, the stereotypes against Canada doesn’t work in the Raps favour in luring in free agents, but if a small market like Oklahoma City can lure in free agents, why can’t Toronto? Because OKC is a competitive team, Toronto is not.
    No comment

    Comment


    • #3
      I think that's what some of the more level headed people around here have been saying for a long time.

      Of course, what free agent has Oklahoma lured?
      Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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      • #4
        good article. any reasonable fan already knew it, but it's good to see it in writing

        Comment


        • #5
          Let me tell you the secret used by teams: winning will actually make players want to play for you, no matter where you are located. It’s as simple as that.
          The man isn't lying.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm gonna have to disagree here

            .
            And I take exception to this statement

            I think that's what some of the more level headed people around here have been saying for a long time.
            In that article, 4 players were used to illustrate sachinarora's point:
            1. Damon Stoudemire - demanded a trade after his 1st year. How many star players want out after one year? Little hope of winning in the future? ... he just got there!!
            2. Tracy McGrady - this was a Vince - Tracy family feud saga. Reality is, with Tracy & Vince together, the Raptors could've developed into a powerhouse
            3. Vince Carter - despite his horrible exit, the team didn't have the wheels, so his excuse for not building a proper team, has some merit.
            4. Chris Bosh - a talented player, but not a Star player (IMO). It didn't help that he thought he was worth MAX, and was MVP material. Leaving the Raptors was mutually beneficial. And it would've been even more mutually beneficial if we had traded him 2 years prior.


            The reality is, Raptors have never signed a free agent of note, and that includes Hedo. The above players were all drafted or acquired at the beginning of their careers. They started here, then left.

            Toronto may be the 4th biggest market in the NBA, but it's not a market in the States, so 4th biggest means squat. In other words, it's a DIFFERENT country. And while some say this stated issue can't be proven .... proof for me, is that no Free Agents have made the transfer here - good teams or bad. Even when Bosh was here, and masquerading as a MVP, did any Free Agents think this was an opportunity to build a Contender? NO.

            .

            Say what you will, but suggesting level headed minds don't think this way, strikes me as not being level-headed.

            .

            Comment


            • #7
              RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
              .
              And I take exception to this statement



              In that article, 4 players were used to illustrate sachinarora's point:
              1. Damon Stoudemire - demanded a trade after his 1st year. How many star players want out after one year? Little hope of winning in the future? ... he just got there!!
              2. Tracy McGrady - this was a Vince - Tracy family feud saga. Reality is, with Tracy & Vince together, the Raptors could've developed into a powerhouse
              3. Vince Carter - despite his horrible exit, the team didn't have the wheels, so his excuse for not building a proper team, has some merit.
              4. Chris Bosh - a talented player, but not a Star player (IMO). It didn't help that he thought he was worth MAX, and was MVP material. Leaving the Raptors was mutually beneficial. And it would've been even more mutually beneficial if we had traded him 2 years prior.


              The reality is, Raptors have never signed a free agent of note, and that includes Hedo. The above players were all drafted or acquired at the beginning of their careers. They started here, then left.

              Toronto may be the 4th biggest market in the NBA, but it's not a market in the States, so 4th biggest means squat. In other words, it's a DIFFERENT country. And while some say this stated issue can't be proven .... proof for me, is that no Free Agents have made the transfer here - good teams or bad. Even when Bosh was here, and masquerading as a MVP, did any Free Agents think this was an opportunity to build a Contender? NO.

              .

              Say what you will, but suggesting level headed minds don't think this way, strikes me as not being level-headed.

              .
              Well, Stoudemire was in Toronto for two years, and the reason he forced his way out had nothing to do with it being Toronto. It had to do with his mentor, Isiah, being forced out of his ownership role and off of the Raptors.

              Tracy McGrady left because he felt that Butch Carter wasn't giving him enough freedom and because he felt he would always be overshadowed by Vince. Again, nothing to do with Toronto.

              Vince demanded a trade after re-signing once and after he'd (understandably) lost all confidence in management. Again, nothing to do with it being Toronto.

              Bosh left after re-signing once and after Colangelo failed to build a decent team around him, resulting in the Raptors missing out in the playoffs the previous two seasons.

              Free agents want to sign with contenders. At no point have the Raptors ever been a contender. Even when Vince lead the team to the second round. And that was the ONLY time the Raptors ever even GOT to the second round. You think players want to sign with mediocre teams?

              Free agents also want to sign with respected organizations. Toronto also has never been that.

              So I stand by what I said.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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              • #8
                We're losing players because The Raptors have been a horrible team with horrible management. Nothing more.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ftw

                  joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                  The man isn't lying.
                  I agree with this statement as well, and I want to use the Toronto Blue Jays as an example, the blue jays are similar to the raptors in the sense that they are canadian and in a predominantly US league. So all the preconceived notions that fans have about players and about how they dont want to be in Canada should apply to them as well. If you remember 1992 and 1993 when the blue jays won the world series, they were stacked loaded with star players (they actually had like 9 players in the all star game in 1993). Why were they able to attract big name players like Roger Clemens? Because they were a winner.

                  That is the number one thing that players care about. They want to win. Dont get me wrong the glamour, and allure of a big name city like New York, Or Los Angeles is a factor too, but it is much less important than the desire for them to be on a winner. Why couldnt New york (the largest market in the NBA) lure the big three? because they suck, Miami was only a few years removed from winning the championship and was atleast a play off team (and had DWADE).

                  Toronto, or the raptors do not have any issue when it comes to attracting free agents cause "They dont want to play in canada" its cause we have been one of the worst franchises since our inception according to our winning percentage.

                  In fact I would like to contend that playing in Canada is a tremendous opportunity for players; we have one of the biggest markets in the NBA, a whole country will jump on your band wagon if you deliver a winner. Look at how popular Vince Carter became playing here (he was the highest vote recipient at the allstar game a few years in row) because of the huge market and fan support behind him. Playing in Toronto is a tremendous opportunity for a player, especially if we can become a winning franchise.

                  So stop with the self pity everyone, its not unfair, its not that we have gotten the short end of the stick, its that our team has sucked thats why people dont want to play here.

                  (BTW I am one of the most hard core raptors fan, I believe the future is bright, but history speaks for itself)
                  "Defense wins championships."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The reality is, Raptors have never signed a free agent of note, and that includes Hedo. The above players were all drafted or acquired at the beginning of their careers. They started here, then left.

                    Toronto may be the 4th biggest market in the NBA, but it's not a market in the States, so 4th biggest means squat. In other words, it's a DIFFERENT country. And while some say this stated issue can't be proven .... proof for me, is that no Free Agents have made the transfer here - good teams or bad. Even when Bosh was here, and masquerading as a MVP, did any Free Agents think this was an opportunity to build a Contender? NO.

                    .

                    Say what you will, but suggesting level headed minds don't think this way, strikes me as not being level-headed.

                    .[/QUOTE]

                    I am not suggesting that in hindsight Hedo was a good deal, obviously he stunk here, but he was THE major free agent signing of that off season. And to say he was not significant is simply not true. In my experience with Americans, they have not really had a clue about different cultures or had any interest in finding out about them and what they do or do not have to offer, so I am not surprised that young athletes are as misinformed about the city and country.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      For the most part the majority of these issues are neither provable nor disprovable on their own. Each case had multiple different circumstances, opinions and statements that revolved around them. So looking at them individually is difficult unless players come out and say something truthful, which is rare because most of them are intelligent enough to atleast be politically correct.

                      Was McGrady because he wasn't getting enough time, did he want to be 'the man' or did he want more exposure?

                      Was Vince because the team was losing, was he losing faith in management, or did he want more exposure?

                      Only Tracy and Vince trully now that.

                      etc. etc. etc.

                      BUT if you look at them as a whole I think we get a better idea. The reality is that to date star players have neither wanted to come to or stay in Toronto past their 'obligated' (and I use that loosely) terms (ie. until RFA). Those players that were closest to stars that came were payed above their current market value, and also way above their fair market value. (Hedo and Hakeem).

                      So is part of this due to losing (or not winning)? Ofcourse it was. There is no doubt that not winning has an effect on attracting and keeping FAs. Thats standard practice in all sports. But was all of it due to that? Ofcourse not. If winning was the end all and be all of Free Agency, the Raps should have had players lining up on the doorstep after 06/07 or 200/01... their teams were young and promising with star talent on the team.

                      People use the 'winning' argument to easily. There is truth to it, but it doesn't explain all. And thats where the issue of 'small market' or 'being in Canada' come in. Considering players have openly admitted to not wanting to play in Canada, have admitted to have issue with customs, have historically sought after big market teams and Toronto's 16 year history is very short on signing and keeping top notch talent... its not hard to make a connection.

                      So I guess what I'm saying is while Toronto could attract FAs if/when the team begins to be consistently good again, don't bet the farm on that happening. Fans should expect Toronto to build throught the draft, overpay for FAs they do sign and the chance of the FAs signed being stars is very low. The draft and savy trades are how the Raps will become and stay succesful. Expect the best FAs they do sign to be of the Jarret Jack, Amir Johnson calibre (ie. useful, good to fair value, but not stars).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                        For the most part the majority of these issues are neither provable nor disprovable on their own. Each case had multiple different circumstances, opinions and statements that revolved around them. So looking at them individually is difficult unless players come out and say something truthful, which is rare because most of them are intelligent enough to atleast be politically correct.

                        Was McGrady because he wasn't getting enough time, did he want to be 'the man' or did he want more exposure?

                        Was Vince because the team was losing, was he losing faith in management, or did he want more exposure?

                        Only Tracy and Vince trully now that.

                        etc. etc. etc.

                        BUT if you look at them as a whole I think we get a better idea. The reality is that to date star players have neither wanted to come to or stay in Toronto past their 'obligated' (and I use that loosely) terms (ie. until RFA). Those players that were closest to stars that came were payed above their current market value, and also way above their fair market value. (Hedo and Hakeem).

                        So is part of this due to losing (or not winning)? Ofcourse it was. There is no doubt that not winning has an effect on attracting and keeping FAs. Thats standard practice in all sports. But was all of it due to that? Ofcourse not. If winning was the end all and be all of Free Agency, the Raps should have had players lining up on the doorstep after 06/07 or 200/01... their teams were young and promising with star talent on the team.

                        People use the 'winning' argument to easily. There is truth to it, but it doesn't explain all. And thats where the issue of 'small market' or 'being in Canada' come in. Considering players have openly admitted to not wanting to play in Canada, have admitted to have issue with customs, have historically sought after big market teams and Toronto's 16 year history is very short on signing and keeping top notch talent... its not hard to make a connection.

                        So I guess what I'm saying is while Toronto could attract FAs if/when the team begins to be consistently good again, don't bet the farm on that happening. Fans should expect Toronto to build throught the draft, overpay for FAs they do sign and the chance of the FAs signed being stars is very low. The draft and savy trades are how the Raps will become and stay succesful. Expect the best FAs they do sign to be of the Jarret Jack, Amir Johnson calibre (ie. useful, good to fair value, but not stars).
                        More exposure? Vince lead all player in All-Stars voting for 4 out of 5 years, at his peak, and he was the NBA's marquee player during that time. Why on earth would you think he might want more exposure? Keep in mind that Rob Babcock had just drafted Rafael Araujo and the team finished with 33 wins the season before. There had been a lot of talk about trading Vince long before he demanded a trade. Now, obviously we don't know for sure why he demanded a trade, but logically, it's hard to say that it had anything to do with wanting more exposure considering he was the most popular player in the NBA, at his peak.

                        And McGrady was witness to Vince popularity, so he would have known you didn't need to go down south in order to get exposure.

                        And this is exactly what I'm talking about. It obviously could have been any reason that guys like Vince and McGrady wanted to leave, but most Raptor fans seem to want to think it had to do with them playing in Canada, and there's literally no evidence of that.
                        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                        • #13
                          There's a couple of inaccuracies in the article.

                          First off, he references Tracy McGrady as a player who didn't leave because the team was doing poorly, and yet the entire point of the article is to prove that players are leaving because the team was doing poorly? The author, who I'm pretty sure is the OP of the thread, claims that winning will either draw these types of players to Toronto or convince them to stick around but this is a very clear example where this was not the case. I'm confused.

                          Secondly, T-Mac is on record as saying that he struggled personally during his tenure in Toronto - he found it too cold after growing up in Orlando and he referred Toronto as a "foreign country" as if he was forced to speak a strange new language and undertake a whole new culture when he got here. Most people on this board would find those things laughable because we know better, but there's a large part of the NBA that holds this mindset, even if it is grossly inaccurate and kind of insulting to us. Perry Jones, with his remarks about "going through customs everyday" and stating that he'd be upset if he was drafted by the Raps, is just the latest example.

                          A big part of why Bosh left is because the team was sputtering but I think anyone who has watched Bosh closely over the last three seasons would tell you that he also felt cheated by a lack of exposure, especially compared to the other young star players down in the states. He would never come out and say it but I think there was somewhat of an inferiority complex that had grown there. He was a dream teamer and gold medal winner, a perennial all star (and a starter in some years), posted some of the best stats in the NBA, etc. but still couldn't seem to break into the consciousness of the USA and get the same recognition that players with similar or lesser resumes did.

                          Bosh's decision to link up with Wade and LBJ in Miami had a lot to do about contending for a championship, but it also had something to do with growing his "brand" and being mentioned in the same breathe with those two for the next four seasons.

                          Stoudamire didn't leave because the team stunk. He left because Isiah got squeezed out of the ownership group/front office and Stoudamire took it personally because the two of them were so close. Would he have sucked it up and continued to play if he was on a team that was poised to contend in the next year or two? Quite possible. But would he have sucked it up and continued to play if he was in a market like New York or LA? Yeah, I'd say that's a good possibility as well.

                          I think my point is that the stigma surrounding Canada has something to do with it all, but just how big of a piece it plays is impossible to calculate and varies on a player to player basis and involves other variables. If the team was much better than more people would be drawn here and players would be more likely to stick around, no question. But it's also more difficult to build a winner when they're faced with some of these challenges. I don't think it's only the Raptors either - it's the same reason why markets like Milwaukee find themselves in the same plight. When was the last time the Bucks landed a marquee free agent? What are the chances that a player like Brandon Jennings leaves for a bigger spotlight when his contract is up?

                          I'm not excusing the Raptors front office work because it's been horrid for the most part. I just think you're taking the easy road by by saying that it's as simple as building a good team and that other factors don't play a part.
                          Last edited by Fully; Mon Aug 29th, 2011, 01:18 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Poster is indeed the writer of the article (as Fully said). Could have been clearer about that, but was in earlier posts. Looks like a young starting blogger, so a little selfpromotion is ok for all I'm concerned. Content could be more thought out; it's very reductionistic, the argumentation is begging the question and ending by saying the Thunder attract freeagents because they are a winning team is, well, not good research (at least I don't know who he means).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              More exposure? Vince lead all player in All-Stars voting for 4 out of 5 years, at his peak, and he was the NBA's marquee player during that time. Why on earth would you think he might want more exposure? Keep in mind that Rob Babcock had just drafted Rafael Araujo and the team finished with 33 wins the season before. There had been a lot of talk about trading Vince long before he demanded a trade. Now, obviously we don't know for sure why he demanded a trade, but logically, it's hard to say that it had anything to do with wanting more exposure considering he was the most popular player in the NBA, at his peak.

                              And McGrady was witness to Vince popularity, so he would have known you didn't need to go down south in order to get exposure.

                              And this is exactly what I'm talking about. It obviously could have been any reason that guys like Vince and McGrady wanted to leave, but most Raptor fans seem to want to think it had to do with them playing in Canada, and there's literally no evidence of that.

                              Sorry I'd love to see what evidence you have that the above is true (ie. Vince would have been unable to get more exposure in America than in Canada in the same circumstances. is it impossible for him to have gotten even more votes had he played in NJ at the time, or LA, or Minn? would he have been unable to get more or bigger endorsement deals?). If not, the argument is just as valid as the other side of the coin.

                              I have no idea why people don't want to beleive that playing in Canada doesn't or wouldn't have a huge impact on a players decision making, regardless of what history has shown and what players have said. It is there and it is real, trying to hide behind "Canadian insecurity" hardly changes anything.

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