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The Real Reason the Raps have Been Losing their Players

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  • #16
    GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Sorry I'd love to see what evidence you have that the above is true (ie. Vince would have been unable to get more exposure in America than in Canada in the same circumstances. is it impossible for him to have gotten even more votes had he played in NJ at the time, or LA, or Minn? would he have been unable to get more or bigger endorsement deals?). If not, the argument is just as valid as the other side of the coin.

    I have no idea why people don't want to beleive that playing in Canada doesn't or wouldn't have a huge impact on a players decision making, regardless of what history has shown and what players have said. It is there and it is real, trying to hide behind "Canadian insecurity" hardly changes anything.
    Reread my comment. I said that there could have been any reason for him to want to leave. We don't know. But a lot of self pitying Raptor fans want to assume it's because he wanted to play in the US. All I know is that, despite playing in Toronto and despite never taking his team past the second round of the playoffs, and despite struggling with injuries even during his prime years, Vince lead all players in All-Star voting 3 times in 4 years, was voted as a starter by the fans 6 straight years, and only stopped being voted in by fans after his first full season away from Toronto.

    COULD he have gotten more exposure if he were traded to New York or L.A.? Sure. But this isn't Chris Bosh or even Karl Malone, here. Vince was the most popular player in the NBA for several years, in his prime, and had plenty of exposure, despite playing in Toronto. I don't know if anyone can say the guy was underexposed because he was a Raptor.
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    • #17
      Tim W. wrote: View Post
      Reread my comment. I said that there could have been any reason for him to want to leave. We don't know. But a lot of self pitying Raptor fans want to assume it's because he wanted to play in the US. All I know is that, despite playing in Toronto and despite never taking his team past the second round of the playoffs, and despite struggling with injuries even during his prime years, Vince lead all players in All-Star voting 3 times in 4 years, was voted as a starter by the fans 6 straight years, and only stopped being voted in by fans after his first full season away from Toronto.

      COULD he have gotten more exposure if he were traded to New York or L.A.? Sure. But this isn't Chris Bosh or even Karl Malone, here. Vince was the most popular player in the NBA for several years, in his prime, and had plenty of exposure, despite playing in Toronto. I don't know if anyone can say the guy was underexposed because he was a Raptor.
      so let me get this straight, you decided to rebutt part of my statement with what I said? awesome.

      and there is no self pity here. The only thing I pity is having to watch Andrea not try for another season. The rest has been Toronto Raptors history to date. Whether the team is good or bad, whether the team is promising or terrible, FAs of note have not come to Toronto without being past their prime and overpaid. ALL the 'best' players have all asked/wanted to leave (Damon, McGrady, Antonio, Vince, Bosh). BC himself has stated that there are issues with keeping/attracting players. (and JP Riccardi said the same thing aswell in regards to the Jays)

      Why is there a need to act like this isn't really happening? Its not like I'm saying basketball is ending in Toronto, that the Raps will be unable to win and they should just give up. The Raptors organization simply needs to put a higher priority on value, efficiency, growing talent, and looking for the RIGHT mental make-up (admittedly much more difficult to do than say). The team (and fans) need to understand this when their favorite player turns down a max contract extension and is talking about testing the market 2 years before his contract is up he's not coming back. Rather than crossing their fingers, saying everything is normal and let the best asset they had in more than half a decade walk away for nearly nothing.

      Players demanding/wanting out, and how the team has approached/reacted to it, has been, hands down, the most destructive force to this team to date. It is the reason this team has been unable to achieve a status above what it has. They need to do a much better job being proactive about it rather than sitting on their hands and then having to react to the worst case scenario from a position of weakness. Then, and only then, will the team be consistently 'good' enough to get a reputation that will overcome the stereotypes/concerns of players and barrier of geography.

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      • #18
        I think it goes much deeper than just a lack of exposure in Canada. Some players hate the winters, especially if they grew up in the Southern States, and there's a lot of guys who are just ignorant and equate playing in Canada as the same thing as playing in Bosnia or something. They don't like it because it's outside of the US - plain and simple.
        Last edited by Fully; Tue Aug 30th, 2011, 01:18 PM.

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        • #19
          Fully wrote: View Post
          I think it goes much deeper than just a lack of exposure in Canada. Some players hate the winters, especially if they grew up in the Southern States, and there's a lot of guys who are just ignorant and equate playing in Canada as the same thing as playing in Bosnia or something. They don't like it because it's outside of the US - plain and simple.
          But the point is that none of that would matter nearly as much if the Raptors were a winning organization. All things being equal, every player would play in Miami or for the Lakers. There's reasons not to play in all but a few NBA markets. But players still go there, anyway.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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          • #20
            Tim W. wrote: View Post
            But the point is that none of that would matter nearly as much if the Raptors were a winning organization. All things being equal, every player would play in Miami or for the Lakers. There's reasons not to play in all but a few NBA markets. But players still go there, anyway.
            From my previous post:

            "I think my point is that the stigma surrounding Canada has something to do with it all, but just how big of a piece it plays is impossible to calculate and varies on a player to player basis and involves other variables. If the team was much better than more people would be drawn here and players would be more likely to stick around, no question. But it's also more difficult to build a winner when they're faced with some of these challenges. I don't think it's only the Raptors either - it's the same reason why markets like Milwaukee find themselves in the same plight. When was the last time the Bucks landed a marquee free agent? What are the chances that a player like Brandon Jennings leaves for a bigger spotlight when his contract is up?

            I'm not excusing the Raptors front office work because it's been horrid for the most part. I just think you're taking the easy road by by saying that it's as simple as building a good team and that other factors don't play a part. "

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            • #21
              Fully wrote: View Post
              From my previous post:

              "I think my point is that the stigma surrounding Canada has something to do with it all, but just how big of a piece it plays is impossible to calculate and varies on a player to player basis and involves other variables. If the team was much better than more people would be drawn here and players would be more likely to stick around, no question. But it's also more difficult to build a winner when they're faced with some of these challenges. I don't think it's only the Raptors either - it's the same reason why markets like Milwaukee find themselves in the same plight. When was the last time the Bucks landed a marquee free agent? What are the chances that a player like Brandon Jennings leaves for a bigger spotlight when his contract is up?

              I'm not excusing the Raptors front office work because it's been horrid for the most part. I just think you're taking the easy road by by saying that it's as simple as building a good team and that other factors don't play a part. "
              I've never said the other factors wouldn't matter. They do, which is why I said that all things being equal, everyone would rather play in either Miami or L.A. But winning changes people's perception. And I'm not talking about winning 50 games, here. I'm talking about being a real contender. Players will overlook a lot to play on a contender, including all the things that work against Toronto right now. Especially since the city is probably one of the top 5 in the the league. I mean, we're not talking about Salt Lake City, here. A lot of players actually like Toronto. They just don't want to play for the team, in large part, because the team is not respected.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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