So Adleman Picked the Wolves?!

[JoePanini]

5.5 rebounds per game for a SF is "not doing anything?"
Huh. Ok.


And Varnando hasn't done SQUAT in the League.
Beasley has at least proven that he belongs, and has certainly shown to at least be worthy of the #2 pick consideration at this point.
Heck, ALOT of people had him going before Derrick Rose lit up the NCAA tournament.

5.5 rebounds is pretty average for a SF. For a guy who should be getting a lot of boards, rebounding being one of his fortes in college, it isn't impressive at all. Your case is that Beasley is a pretty good player. Him being decent on offense, and either average or below average at everything else makes him as valuable as a rotation player on a contending team.

Every player that makes it into the NBA has talent. Beasley has talent, but he hasn't developed since coming out of college. And he acts like he should still be in High School. This is a guy who should be running the floor, defending using his long arms and his "incredible" strength. He should be flying for rebounds like he did in college. He doesn't, and he doesn't look like he will.

There's a reason why Rose was selected first, he plays with heart, he puts in a lot of effort. He plays at 110% each game, which is why he lit up the NCAA tournament and Beasley didn't. Which is why Rose has worked on his game every year since joining the league, and improved consistently on his skills and his flaws.

Beasley hasn't improved since entering the NBA, his per minute stats are nearly the same his entire career.

Anyways, just curious. How many games have you watched of him? Because if you watch him play, it's pretty ugly. Unless you like watching basketball for rare flashy dunks and teen drama.

[Joey]

You quote me, and yet leave out the part in which I try to summarize my entire argument ... awesome.
Love when that happens.

I've watched Beasley play on a number of occasions. But can't say I've much 'Flashy Dunks', or 'Teen Drama' on the court from him. However, you speak like you watched every Timberwolves game last year; so clearly I don't stand a shot.
Especially when you pick and choose which of my points to address; and leave the other ones, in which you don't have a response to, in limbo.

Again, I'm NOT saying he's an All-Star and is amazing, and should be Top-20 in the League.
I'm not. I never have.
If you would have carried over my summary, or even just read my first post on the subject, you would have noticed that I'm merely trying to understand how Williams makes it onto the list, and Beasley does not, when Beasley had a far more impressive Collegiate Career.

Which at this point, is the ONLY basis of comparison between the two.

[Tim W.]

How is he too small to play PF?? I don't get it.
He's 6'-10", 240lbs. If thats too small to play Power Forward, then someone better break the news to Amir Johnson... he's a mere 6'-9", 210lbs. Or Ed Davis, at 6'-10", 215lbs.


As for whether or not Beasley is a mismatch at the 3, I'd say he ABSOLUTELY is.
Find me one other SF with his combination of Size, Strength and Range. AND one that is an above average rebounder as well.
Only ones I can think of is Melo, Durant and James. And Beasley has a Size and Strength advantage over Melo and Durant.
And is 2" taller than Lebron.

And if "many wing players are drafted each year like him", which of them is putting up 20ppg and 5.5rpg, with a steal and block? And which of them ever put up the numbers he did in NCAA?
NONE.

I agree that stats in NCAA don't always translate to the NBA, but generally if you show to be ELITE at certain aspects of the game, then you will at least be Above Average once you are acclimated to the NBA. In my opinion.

Beasley was measured at 6'8 1/4 WITH shoes.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/...l-Beasley-605/

Those measurements on NBA.com or ESPN don't mean a thing.

And I'm not saying that Beasley wouldn't create mismatch problems at the 3, but it's the exact same thing with Bargnani. Both create mismatch problems, but because they can't defend on the other end, it cancels it out.

And you're focusing too much on what Beasley put up on a bad NBA team. I've used the example of TOny Campbell (also a Timberwolf) who averaged 23 ppg, 5.5 rpg and 2.6 apg his first season on the team. All Star numbers, right? Well, the reason he was able to put up those numbers is because he was given a green light and the offense ran through him. He was traded to New York, eventually, for a second round pick and couldn't even average double digits.

And if you think Beasley is going to be good then you've got to feel the same about Bargnani, because they're numbers were very similar.

The problem with Beasley is he's a volume scorer, meaning he needs a lot of shots to be effective. Unfortunately he's not an efficient enough scorer to want him to be a first or second (or even third) option on a good team, and he doesn't do anything else well enough to be a supporting player. That's why Riley wanted him gone for basically nothing. He knew Beasley was fools gold. Looks good on a bad team but can't fit in on a good team.

[Joey]

Ok ... but again, back to my original point ... how do you figure Williams is going to be "All World Scorer", (Although, you've made the point quite often that ANYONE can score 20+ points in the NBA) when you've literally seen NOTHING from him in the NBA.

And what you saw of him in College, is nothing close to what Beasley was able to do in college. (Third most points scored EVER in the NCAA by a freshman. Second most Rebounds grabbed EVER in the NCAA by a freshman.)

This is my point. Again, I'm not saying that Beasley is amazing and should be praised and worshipped.
All I'm saying is how can you give say that Williams will be more Valuable than Beasley when he's never played a game in the NBA.

[mcHAPPY]

Back to the original topic, ESPN is reporting a done deal with Wolves and Adelman.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/69...man-head-coach

[Tim W.]

Ok ... but again, back to my original point ... how do you figure Williams is going to be "All World Scorer", (Although, you've made the point quite often that ANYONE can score 20+ points in the NBA) when you've literally seen NOTHING from him in the NBA.

And what you saw of him in College, is nothing close to what Beasley was able to do in college. (Third most points scored EVER in the NCAA by a freshman. Second most Rebounds grabbed EVER in the NCAA by a freshman.)

This is my point. Again, I'm not saying that Beasley is amazing and should be praised and worshipped.
All I'm saying is how can you give say that Williams will be more Valuable than Beasley when he's never played a game in the NBA.

I didn't say Williams was going to be an All World scorer. I said POTENTIALLY. And he is. That's why he went second.

And again you're getting caught up in superficial numbers. Beasley's freshman season was amazing. But how efficient a scorer was he? How successful was his team? What kind of role did he have in the offense? How did he score those points?

All that matters when trying to gauge a player's transition to the NBA.

Williams' team went to the Final 8, with Williams raising his play in those games. He was the most efficient scorer in college basketball, leading the NCAA in true shooting percentage and effective field goal percentage. One of his biggest strengths is his ability to draw fouls, which is VERY important to becoming an elite scorer in the NBA. And whether it's a fluke or not, the guy shot 57% from 3 on 74 shots. He's also a little more athletic than Beasley.

Also, Williams didn't have a lot of offense run for him. I'm sure he could have easily scorer 26 ppg, but Arizona was a good team so that type of scoring output was not needed from Williams. It also shows he knows how to play without the ball in his hands, which Beasley has yet to show.

And lastly, but certainly not least, Williams is far more mature than Beasley. This can't be overstated.

I understand you like Beasley, but if the guy ever puts up decent numbers on a good team, I'll be shocked. He just doesn't seem to have that type of game.

[Joey]

I didn't say Williams was going to be an All World scorer. I said POTENTIALLY. And he is. That's why he went second.

Second .. in the weakest draft EVER (some peoples opinion.)

And again you're getting caught up in superficial numbers. Beasley's freshman season was amazing. But how efficient a scorer was he? How successful was his team? What kind of role did he have in the offense? How did he score those points?

His freshman season WAS amazing. And he did while shooting 54% from the Floor and and 38% from deep. Thats efficient if you ask me.
His team was 20-10 and made it to the Second Round of the Tournament as a #11 Seed.
Just because the guys team was worse than Williams shouldn't be a fault of his own though.

All that matters when trying to gauge a player's transition to the NBA.

Williams' team went to the Final 8, with Williams raising his play in those games. He was the most efficient scorer in college basketball, leading the NCAA in true shooting percentage and effective field goal percentage. One of his biggest strengths is his ability to draw fouls, which is VERY important to becoming an elite scorer in the NBA. And whether it's a fluke or not, the guy shot 57% from 3 on 74 shots. He's also a little more athletic than Beasley.

Well in terms of Drawing Fouls, Beasley ranked 4th and 5th respectively for FTs Made (216) and Attempted (279) . He converted them at a higher clip (77%) than Williams (74%) did from the line.

*Williams ranked 1st (237) and 4th (331) in Makes/Attempts, against an allegedly weak talent pool.
**These are also Freshman stats vs. Sophomore stats.

Also, Williams didn't have a lot of offense run for him. I'm sure he could have easily scorer 26 ppg, but Arizona was a good team so that type of scoring output was not needed from Williams. It also shows he knows how to play without the ball in his hands, which Beasley has yet to show.

What?! Yes he most certainly did.
Their next leading scorer on the season was Lamont Jones and he put up 9ppg on 41% shooting from the floor.
Williams WAS Wildcats offense last year.

From the NHR:
"The Wildcats offense was centered completely on Williams, as we was able to create for himself and other teammates, usually when other teams chose to double the power forward." Source

And lastly, but certainly not least, Williams is far more mature than Beasley. This can't be overstated.

The maturity issue may be the ONLY point that I agree on here.
And being more Mature doesn't make you "All World" anything.
For me, I haven't seen this "All World Scorer" Potential.
Unless maybe I'm making "All World" out to be a bigger deal than you meant it to be.
But when I hear "All World" I expect Top 5 Scoring in the League, fairly quickly into his NBA career.
I just don't see that happening to Williams .. ever.

I understand you like Beasley, but if the guy ever puts up decent numbers on a good team, I'll be shocked. He just doesn't seem to have that type of game.

Once again, this has NOTHING to do with who I like more, and EVERYTHING to do with the fact that you are already saying Williams will be more valuable to the team than Beasley, which I personally think is ridiculous at this point. Thats all.
Especially considering Beasley went #2 as well.. in a MUCH stronger draft.

*Again, I feel I need to state that I AM a fan of Derrick Williams, and I think he will be a great player.
This is not meant as an attack against Williams. This IS a defense of Beasley.*

[Joey]

Annnd I'm done with that argument.

Sorry for veering off topic fellas.

[ezz_bee]

it was fun! Nice to see some "be easy" love on the RR.

[Joey]

it was fun! Nice to see some "be easy" love on the RR.

'Fun' indeed ... hahah
The guy gets alot of Flak 'round these parts and I felt it was time to stick up for him.
Everyone needs to be loved once in a while. Just like your sig says ezz.

[Tim W.]

Okay, you may be done, but I've got a few more points. Comparing Beasley's college stats to Williams' and talking about where each one was drafted or whether it was a weak draft is pretty much moot. With Williams, we HAVE to look at his college stats because we have nothing else to look at. With Beasley, we've got 3 years of NBA basketball to look at, so his college stats mean absolutely nothing. I mean, who cares what he scored in college or whether he had the best freshman season ever. Adam Morrison scored 28 ppg in his last year in college, but did that translate to the NBA? No.

With Williams, we obviously don't know how his scoring will translate to the NBA, but he appears to have the skills to be potentially a great scorer. With Beasley we already have a pretty damn good sampling of evidence in the NBA to be able to draw some conclusions. He doesn't score efficiently, doesn't defend and isn't a good rebounder. So what exactly is he doing that makes you think he's still going to be a good player?

[Joey]

Okay, I wanted to be done...

Real quick; you keep pointing to the fact that he isn't an efficient scorer, and yet:

Beasley shot 45% from the Field / 37% from 3 / and 75% from the Line.
Carmelo Anthony shot 45%/37%/83%
Lebron James shot 51%/33%/76%
Kevin Durant shot 46%/35%/88%

Michael Beasley is younger than all of them and they are considered the best Small Forwards in the League.
His numbers are at least comparative on a relative scale. So if he is not an efficient scorer, than he's at least not to far behind the best of the best in the league. Give him another year and I'm sure he'll have become a much more efficient scorer.

And again, he isn't a good rebounder Tim? Come on! He grabbed 6.4prg as a 21 year old Sophomore!
The guy set Records in the NCAA. He IS a good rebounder. He is a VERY GOOD rebounder. Proven fact. I know the 'NCAA is a moot point', but I disagree seeing as he's still only 22 years old and adjusting to playing Small Forward full time. Remember he played Power Forward much of his rookie campaign and 100% at Kansas.

The fact he SOMEHOW managed to grab 5.6 boards with Kevin Love roaming the floor all the time, is impressive if you ask me! Considering he's trailing Anthony, James and Durant by an average of about 1.5rpg. Take K.Love off the floor and I BET you he grabs at least a couple more boards in his place.

As for defense, can you name a 22 year old who is a Stand out defensive player?
It takes time to learn and adjust to the speed of the game. Ya its been a few years, but again, there aren't too many young guys out there known for their defense. I think he'll figure it out.


Thus concludes my Defense of Michael Beasley.


(Comparing Beasley to Adam Morrison? Hindsight is nice in a defense, I guess, eh? Michael-frigging-Jordan thought Morrison "appeared to have the skills to be a potentially great scorer." But I guess you would have told Jordan that Morrison was going to be a chump? The fact you can say Scoring doesn't always translate and then ONLY site Derrick Williams scoring is Hilarious. Meanwhile dooping me into defending EVERY aspect of Beasleys game.)

[Tim W.]

Michael Beasley shot: 45%/37%/ 75%
Carmelo Anthony shot: 45%/37%/83%
Lebron James shot: 51%/33%/76%
Kevin Durant shot: 46%/35%/88%
Andrea Bargnani shot: 45%/35%/82%

So I guess there's not much difference between Bargnani and Beasley, as well as those other players.

Again, you're looking at pretty superficial numbers. James, Anthony and Durant all get to the line at a high rate. Beasley's FGA/FTA ratio is .23, which is very similar to Bargnani. The majority of the good scorer are generally well over .30 or even .40. Shooting percentages only tell a small part of the story.

When you look at True Shooting Percentage, Carmelo, Durant and James are all in the top 15-20 for small forwards, all above 56%. Beasley was close to the bottom, at 51%. Bargnani is a little better, at 53%.

I hate to say it, but you're using a lot of the same arguments Bargnani fans use to defend him.

He's a 20+ppg scorer- Yes, but he doesn't score efficiently and he does it on a bad team without a lot of scoring. In other words, his numbers are inflated.

You even take the "he's not a good defender" to the other end of the spectrum where you ask how many 22 year olds are stand out defenders! I'm not expecting him to be a standout defender. But he's a bad defender. A bad one. And he's got poor defensive instincts and doesn't have the footspeed to defend the SF position adequately. By the way if you come back with steal and block numbers, I may pass out from laughter (since Bargnani defenders do that).

And yes, he grabbed 6.4 rpg (as a freshman, since he only played one season), but he was playing PF in college. Those aren't good numbers for a PF. I admit, Beasley's not a bad rebounder, but he's probably below average. And for a guy with the build he does, he should be a lot better.

The point is that there's nothing that Beasley does extraordinarily well. He's a good scorer, but he's not efficient, so you don't want him to be one of your main options. He's not a good role player because he needs the ball to be effective. He's not an off the ball guy. And he doesn't do anything else well.

These are all almost identical points I've made about Bargnani, who is basically a taller Michael Beasley. And I'm pretty sure I know your thoughts on Bargnani.

[Joey]

You're turning this around from you saying Derrick Williams is going to be an "All World Scorer", and having nothing to back it up except "he appears to have the skills".

And yes, he grabbed 6.4 rpg (as a freshman, since he only played one season), but he was playing PF in college. Those aren't good numbers for a PF. I admit, Beasley's not a bad rebounder, but he's probably below average. And for a guy with the build he does, he should be a lot better.

What? He grabbed 6.4rpg as a freshman in College Tim? Are you serious? So we're talking about different people then. (Are you even bothering to put together a decent argument?)
Because the guy I'm talking about grabbed 12.4 rebounds per game as a Freshman at Kansas State.
Geezus Tim. I've said that like 15 times.
He grabbed 6.4rpg as a sophomore in the NBA. Which I've also already said.
(I really hate having to repeat myself in arguments. Its annoying and just shows the other guy isn't bothering to listen to your arguments and is only concerned with proving his point. Especially in type, when you can easily just go back and read what I've clearly already stated.)
And once again, how is grabbing 5.6 boards per game below average when I just showed that some of the top SFs in the game grab about 1.5 more per game, and NONE have Kevin Love on the team. Explain to me how that is 'below average'. Please. Or ignore this point like you've done with many others.

Anyway once again, I'm done with this. I'd rather you not respond to this.
You're clearly missing my point, or just completely avoiding it.
Either way, once again as you always do, you've duked and dodged until you've managed to pick and choose which points you milk to death, without actually addressing my initial criticism. Well done, sir.

(Also quite impressive how you somehow managed to bring up Bargnani in a conversation about Small Forwards. But then again, did I really expect you not to turn this into a Bargnani conversation?)

And my thoughts on Bargnani are actually about the same on Beasley, you're right.
With a little more effort and a little more focus, they can both be very special players.
The difference being is that Beasley is doing all of this while still being only 22 years of age.

[heinz57]

joey is the new multi.

you need to bring up Wayne Winston and Mathletics into your arguments more though

King Bargs, FTW