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  • #31
    Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Why is it people just look at basic stats and not beyond that? DeRozan averaged 15 more mpg last season, which was a massive reason he doubled his scoring. He also took more shots per minute due to a larger role on offense. You stick anyone out there for 15 more mpg and give him more shots and he's going to increase his ppg.

    Again, I'm not bashing the guy, and I believe he's got the makings of a good scorer, and have said so on numerous occasions. But 18 ppg on a bad team doesn't mean nearly as much as you make it seem. Lots of players can score if given the minutes and shots. What questions need to be asked are: How efficient is the scoring, do they score in the flow of the offense or have to force the issue, how effective are they when the game is close, and do they play with blinders on or do they make the right pass when they need to? Most importantly, can do help the team apart from scoring?



    Unfortunately it makes a HUGE difference. As I stated above, a lot of players in the NBA, if given the shots, can score 20 ppg. Most NBA players have pretty damn good skills. My perfect player to bring up in this argument is Tony Campbell. Campbell was a deep bench player for Detroit and the Lakers in the 80's, but when he signed with Minnesota, an expansion team, he scored 23 ppg. In fact, in his 3 years in Minnesota, one of the worst teams in the league, he averaged 20.6 ppg. Then he was traded to New York, a contender, he never hit double digits in scoring again, and never again played 20 mpg.

    The reason is that Campbell could score, when the offense revolved around him and he was given enough shots. But he wasn't a good enough scorer to warrant taking 19 shots per game on a good team, and he wasn't very good at much else, so if he wasn't scoring, he wasn't of that much use.

    A current player example is Marcus Thornton. The last 3 months of his rookie season he averaged nearly 20 ppg. Of course the team went 10-24 in that period. The next season, with a healthy Chris Paul, the team became a playoff team, but he couldn't get consistent minutes and was traded to Sacramento, a bad team, where he averaged 21.3 ppg. The problem in New Orleans is that he can't play defense to save his life, and does absolutely nothing else other than score, and he's not really a good enough scorer to warrant taking 18 shots per game on a good team.

    Other players in this category: Corey Maggette, Al Harrington, Bargnani, Monta Ellis. All these players are very good scorers, but aren't good enough PLAYERS to do it on a good team.
    but they are going up against the same competition as every other player. If u reduced lebrons or kobe's minutes they would average lower points too.

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    • #32
      er1csh3n wrote: View Post
      I know your looking at advanced stats, but Derozan has also shot well this year as well(other than 3pt %), you cannot say he didn't improve, even if it was only on the offense side. You need a star on a team, and so far Derozan has proven that.
      Again, I'm not saying he's NOT going to be a star, but at this point he's definitely not. Not when all he can do at an above average rate is score. As I've said, I'm very optimistic about is future, but right now he's a very athletic shooting guard who can score at a pretty good rate and that's about it. I do expect him to make big improvements next season (whenever that might be). But we're not looking at the future. We're looking at right now.
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      • #33
        NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
        but they are going up against the same competition as every other player. If u reduced lebrons or kobe's minutes they would average lower points too.
        Yes, I understand they are going against the same competition, but what you don't seem to understand is that guys like LeBron and Kobe could score 40 ppg if they really wanted to, but their teams would probably lose a lot more games. It's not about how many points you score. It's how many points you score that are within the offense, that aren't forced and that help your team win. Plus, can you do anything else besides score. As I said, you give every player in the league enough minutes and shots and I'd guess a good percentage of them would be able to average 20 ppg. But their teams would lose.
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        • #34
          Tim W. wrote: View Post
          Yes, I understand they are going against the same competition, but what you don't seem to understand is that guys like LeBron and Kobe could score 40 ppg if they really wanted to, but their teams would probably lose a lot more games. It's not about how many points you score. It's how many points you score that are within the offense, that aren't forced and that help your team win. Plus, can you do anything else besides score. As I said, you give every player in the league enough minutes and shots and I'd guess a good percentage of them would be able to average 20 ppg. But their teams would lose.
          Though I do fully agree with the premise of your argument, I'm not sure all of this applies to Demar.
          Demar DOES score within the Offense, he does so within his own abilities; and generally does not force any shots.
          He puts forth effort on the defensive end, and though he may not be the Kobe-stopper we need RIGHT NOW, I think he has the tools to develop a VERY good defensive game.

          I think having a guy like Jose helps control that problem a little bit as well, as he decides who gets the ball, and where they get it.
          Unlike in Milwaukee, (and OKC with Westbrook) where Jennings has the ability to bring the ball up AND kill the possesion all in a matter of 7 seconds, can be VERY detrimental to the team.

          Demar is not in the position, and thus he MUST wait for this shots, or work hard to get them.
          He improved trumendously on his movement off the ball last year, and I expect it to only get better this season.

          He has proven he can score, and do so fairly efficiently.
          And while some put TOO MUCH weight on this ability, I think some put TOO LITTLE weight on it as well.

          As a 22 year old, I don't think ANY of us really know what type of player he can potentially be, except for Demar. And I think he has some VERY lofty goals for himself.

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          • #35
            joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
            Though I do fully agree with the premise of your argument, I'm not sure all of this applies to Demar.
            Demar DOES score within the Offense, he does so within his own abilities; and generally does not force any shots.
            He puts forth effort on the defensive end, and though he may not be the Kobe-stopper we need RIGHT NOW, I think he has the tools to develop a VERY good defensive game.

            I think having a guy like Jose helps control that problem a little bit as well, as he decides who gets the ball, and where they get it.
            Unlike in Milwaukee, (and OKC with Westbrook) where Jennings has the ability to bring the ball up AND kill the possesion all in a matter of 7 seconds, can be VERY detrimental to the team.

            Demar is not in the position, and thus he MUST wait for this shots, or work hard to get them.
            He improved trumendously on his movement off the ball last year, and I expect it to only get better this season.

            He has proven he can score, and do so fairly efficiently.
            And while some put TOO MUCH weight on this ability, I think some put TOO LITTLE weight on it as well.

            As a 22 year old, I don't think ANY of us really know what type of player he can potentially be, except for Demar. And I think he has some VERY lofty goals for himself.
            This is one of the things I like about DeRozan, is that he usually doesn't force the issue and try and do too much (although not always). And you comment about Calderon highlights why I would like to keep him, if possible. Bayless has talent, but he'll put his head down and try and score a little too much. Calderon is better for the development of the young players.
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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