Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Who, if anyone, to cut given an Amnesty Clause?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    DirtyMikeSeaver wrote: View Post
    I know that there's been a lockout and the season ended a long time ago, but you all realize that the Raptors were the 2nd worst team in the East, right? 3rd worst overall? Won only 22 games? And if there's a season, they probably won't be any better barring DeRozan turning into Michael Jordan 2.0? And we're talking about Calderon and Bargnani like they are sacred cows? REALLY? NO ONE should be bought out? To borrow a phrase from a reporter when people were complaining about how losing Kaberle off the Leafs could hurt their powerplay as it pertains to the Raptors not having Calderon to run this team and be a veteran presence: SO WHAT?! Either with or without him, they are going to be BAD, so why not let him go, create some cap room, let some of the young guys play and even give the guy a solid for being a 'good soldier' and let him go be a decent backup on a playoff team. And if they become the worst team in the league, then so be it, higher draft pick! Besides, by the time the Raptors are good again, he won't be with the team anyway.

    Personally, I would waive Bargnani. When your crowd boos your first round pick because he comes from the same CONTINENT as the player that most fans are tired of, it's probably time to cut the cord and start fresh. At this point, you can't build a team around him, unless you have 11 guys killing themselves to play defence, rebounding and do other things while Bargnani puts up his 20-3-3, hoisting up 20 shots a game. Get a start on the DeRozan/Davis era early (to see if they SHOULD be a DeRozan/Davis era) and send a signal to your fans that you're washing your hands of the past.
    I don't think you quite understand the point, here. The fact that the Raptors are one of the worst teams is EXACTLY why waiving players makes absolutely no sense. All waiving Bargnani would do is take away a trade asset from a team without a whole lot of trade assets. In order to send some sort of message, which to me is that management doesn't know what the hell they are doing. And you do realize that the Raptors would still have to continue to pay him, right? Great deal for Bargnani, who will then have his choice of where to play, and still get paid his original contract.

    Doesn't it make a hell of a lot more sense to, I don't know, TRADE a guy like Bargnani so you a) get something in return (like maybe a draft pick) and b) don't have to pay him anymore. Doesn't that make a tad more sense?
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
    Follow me on Twitter.

    Comment


    • #32
      Kleiza remains in BC's 'good graces': Wolstat

      Linas Kleiza, who had offseason microfracture knee surgery, remains in the good graces of Raptors GM Bryan Colangelo.

      The detail came out in a discussion about whether Toronto would waive any players under a new CBA that included amnesty. In addition to having Colangelo's support, Raptors writer Ryan Wolstat notes that Kleiza is good friends with prized draft pick Jonas Valanciunas, and his salary ($13.8 million over three years) isn't onerous. Oct. 1 - 4:25 pm et

      http://www.rotoworld.com/content/pla...=162915&spln=1
      All via Twitter: Ryan Wolstat, Toronto Sun

      Kleiza will make $4.6 million for the next 3 seasons (2 if this one doesn't happen), that's not outrageous for a sixth or seventh man
      They aren't going to piss off a key piece (JV) by cutting his friend. Not happening. BC remains high on Kleiza
      Given existing relationship between Kleiza and Valanciunas think he only gets waived if surgery didn't work
      Calderon only has 2 seasons left and is the only true point guard on team and a leader, Kleiza will be JV's mentor + still could be useful
      Because a couple of people have asked, I don't see the #Raptors waiving anybody if amnesty is put in whenever a deal is signed.

      I wasn't sure if JV and Kleiza were close because I didn't want to think that just because they are Lithuanian that makes them BFF. However, that is a major factor why I do not think Kleiza will be waived. In my opinion there will be a deal before it is known if Kleiza will recover or not. If he doesn't recover, then it will be an insurance write off for the Raptors anyway.

      I'd still let go of Calderon if I felt I could get a young impact FA like Westbrook in 2012.

      Comment


      • #33
        Matt52 wrote: View Post
        I'd still let go of Calderon if I felt I could get a young impact FA like Westbrook in 2012.
        I can't see Westbrook coming to a lottery team, but more importantly, I'm still not completely sold on him. On the right team, I think he'd be great, but if he's who the offense goes through, I don't think he's enough of a true PG to be the solution on a team like the Raptors, who have no one else that can create for teammates. Stick him on Miami or even Atlanta and I think he'd do great. Ask him to run the team and I think he'll struggle. We've already seen Oklahoma struggle because of his lack of true PG skills.
        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
        Follow me on Twitter.

        Comment


        • #34
          I don't think Kleiza and JV are friends. I actually doubt they have meet at all before JV was drafted. They have talked some times after draft pretty sure, don't think it makes them friends already. But fact is, it will be much easier for JV to fit in NBA, if someone like Kleiza would be around.

          Kleiza, btw, is recovering well, there's no indications, why shouldn't he be back for good. And if season is late, he's not even going to miss a start.

          Comment


          • #35
            Tim W. wrote: View Post
            I can't see Westbrook coming to a lottery team, but more importantly, I'm still not completely sold on him. On the right team, I think he'd be great, but if he's who the offense goes through, I don't think he's enough of a true PG to be the solution on a team like the Raptors, who have no one else that can create for teammates. Stick him on Miami or even Atlanta and I think he'd do great. Ask him to run the team and I think he'll struggle. We've already seen Oklahoma struggle because of his lack of true PG skills.
            If there really are personality clashes in OKC (which I do not believe) or Westbrook is tired of shouldering all the blame for any OKC shortcomings (which I could see happening given the media coverage thus far) or Russell pulls a Tracy McGrady saying, "I ain't no Scottie Pippen" (paraphrasing), then I could see him leaving when he gets the opportunity. As for coming to a lottery team, for certain individuals there could be no bigger challenge or ego stroker than coming in to a losing situation and being the piece to turn it all around.

            I focus on Westbrook because BC has a reputation of going after and having star or who he thinks will be star PG's (KJ, Kidd, Marbury, Hardaway, Nash, TJ Ford, Calderon, Bayless).

            As for the notion of creating for teammates, I'm not sure that is a valid point. He was 9th in the league in assists with 8.2 per game in the regular season with only .7 separating 9th and 5th and .1 separating 9th and 6th. He is capable of creating for others.

            Something to consider is the starting lineup of OKC besides Westbrook and Durant: Perkins, Ibaka, and Sefolosha. Hardly offensive juggernauts. Coming off the bench they have Maynor (who would be in for Westbrook), Harden, Collison, Mohammed, and Cook. Collison and Mohammed are garbage man and Cook is a spot up shooter. The only offensive weapon coming off the bench is Harden. After the trade of Green, there were only 3 players who averaged more than 10ppg.

            In the playoffs, Westbrook's assists did certainly take a dive (8.2 to 6.4 per game). However as we know, the game changes in the playoffs - it slows down, it is more half-court and it becomes defense oriented. The series versus Denver, Memphis, and Dallas all had very good perimeter defenders with a combination of good coaching and/or good defensive rotations/systems. Could he have done a better job of breaking the defense? Absolutely. However at 22 years of age last season, I am not ready to write him off like many in the media and I do think he'll figure it out - especially considering how far he has come in just 3 years in the league. The opportunity to play on a more balanced team could also entice him so he does not face the scrutiny and criticism when other teams tighten up on Durant. This is more of an issue to OKC's struggles than Westbrook's PG skills in my opinion.

            Maybe a chance to play with DeMar and Amir might entice him as well. I don't know, I'm grasping at straws now.

            Once just an exciting athlete who could lock down his man and get to the rim at ease, Westbrook has revealed that he is a fine distributor and has even added a smooth jumper to his arsenal. In fact, many of his shots down the stretch against New Jersey were jumpers.

            Toronto swingman DeMar DeRozan - from nearby Compton - is very aware of what makes Westbrook special.

            "He breaks down defences, he can kick the ball out and that's what makes it tough (to guard him)," DeRozan said.

            "He's a handful," echoed Carlesimo in explaining the difficulty of trying to build a game plan against the lightning quick guard.

            "He's an exceptional rebounder, good in transition, can pass the ball, (dangerous on the) pick and roll, (and has) a jump shot now."

            Still, DeRozan, who has a better feeling for Westbrook's game than most since he has been playing with and against Westbrook "since I can remember," is surprised at how far the old friend he calls "the most childish, goofy dude you've ever seen," has come.

            "I can't explain it, it's crazy, he's one of the top three exciting point guards to watch." DeRozan said.

            "I swear, 12th grade, he couldn't dunk . he was barely dunking. He wasn't doing nothing he's doing now."

            Now, young Westbrook is doing everything.

            http://www.torontosun.com/sports/bas.../16409221.html
            One thing I feel confident in saying is there would be no better way for Colangelo to get a long term extension in Toronto than to draft a future star wing in 2012 and sign an All-Star free agent the same summer in addition to JV/ED/Amir fulfilling the potential they all show in a big man rotation (Alabi would be the cherry on top).

            Comment


            • #36
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              As for the notion of creating for teammates, I'm not sure that is a valid point. He was 9th in the league in assists with 8.2 per game in the regular season with only .7 separating 9th and 5th and .1 separating 9th and 6th. He is capable of creating for others.

              Something to consider is the starting lineup of OKC besides Westbrook and Durant: Perkins, Ibaka, and Sefolosha. Hardly offensive juggernauts. Coming off the bench they have Maynor (who would be in for Westbrook), Harden, Collison, Mohammed, and Cook. Collison and Mohammed are garbage man and Cook is a spot up shooter. The only offensive weapon coming off the bench is Harden. After the trade of Green, there were only 3 players who averaged more than 10ppg.
              He moves up to 7th if you look at assists per 48.... but he is also 36th in A:TO ratio, and 27th amongst starting PGs.

              Definetely more of a PG than a bunch out there.... like say a Lou Williams or a Mike Bibby (well what he is now)


              fga:assists
              08/09 2.5:1
              09/10 1.8:1
              10/11 2.1:1

              playoffs

              09/10 2.5:1
              10/11 3.2:1

              He took over 20 shots a game in the playoffs while averaging less than 40% shooting..... 3 more shots a game and his fg% dropped 5% from the regular season. Ast:TO ratio went from a bad 2.12 in the Regular season to a terrible 1.38 in the post season. And while I completely believe what you said is true about the playoffs,ie. game slows down and defense tightens up, this kind of hints at some poor decision making.....

              Question then becomes, if he is not 'forced' (not the best term but I'm sure you know what I mean) to pass to Durant... which he seemed to choose to not do these playoffs.... how much more does he shoot vs pass?

              Comment


              • #37
                GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                He moves up to 7th if you look at assists per 48.... but he is also 36th in A:TO ratio, and 27th amongst starting PGs.

                Definetely more of a PG than a bunch out there.... like say a Lou Williams or a Mike Bibby (well what he is now)


                fga:assists
                08/09 2.5:1
                09/10 1.8:1
                10/11 2.1:1

                playoffs

                09/10 2.5:1
                10/11 3.2:1

                He took over 20 shots a game in the playoffs while averaging less than 40% shooting..... 3 more shots a game and his fg% dropped 5% from the regular season. Ast:TO ratio went from a bad 2.12 in the Regular season to a terrible 1.38 in the post season. And while I completely believe what you said is true about the playoffs,ie. game slows down and defense tightens up, this kind of hints at some poor decision making.....

                Question then becomes, if he is not 'forced' (not the best term but I'm sure you know what I mean) to pass to Durant... which he seemed to choose to not do these playoffs.... how much more does he shoot vs pass?
                It could also be good scouting by opposing teams (especially Memphis and Dallas) and good perimeter defenders forcing the Thunder out of their comfort zone. Outside of Durant, Westbrook, and Harden, there is no consistent scoring threat on this team.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  It could also be good scouting by opposing teams (especially Memphis and Dallas) and good perimeter defenders forcing the Thunder out of their comfort zone. Outside of Durant, Westbrook, and Harden, there is no consistent scoring threat on this team.
                  It could be... could also be he choose to try and take over even when he had Durant on his team.

                  Chris Paul's A:TO ratio dropped quite a bit but still 3.14:1, his FG% went to 55% while his FG taken dropped but his assists increased

                  Mike Conley's numbers changed amazingly close to Westbrook's. Mind you less shots

                  Rondo's numbers were almost identical to his Reg season.

                  Jason Kidd's A:TO ratio dropped but everything else stayed about the same

                  Andre Miller's FG% went up, assists went down about 1.5 and turnovers went up 0.5

                  Derek Rose's shots went up by 3 a game, and FG% dropped significantly. But his assists stayed the same and TO went up marginally.

                  Tony Parker was similar to Westbrook (FG% down, assist down A:TO ratio up) although with a much better FG% and significantly less shots than Westbrook



                  Take that for what you will... but seems to me like Westbrook has been earned himself some well deserved criticism. Especially considering, aside from maybe Kidd, he had the best teammate on this list.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                    It could be... could also be he choose to try and take over even when he had Durant on his team.

                    Chris Paul's A:TO ratio dropped quite a bit but still 3.14:1, his FG% went to 55% while his FG taken dropped but his assists increased

                    Mike Conley's numbers changed amazingly close to Westbrook's. Mind you less shots

                    Rondo's numbers were almost identical to his Reg season.

                    Jason Kidd's A:TO ratio dropped but everything else stayed about the same

                    Andre Miller's FG% went up, assists went down about 1.5 and turnovers went up 0.5

                    Derek Rose's shots went up by 3 a game, and FG% dropped significantly. But his assists stayed the same and TO went up marginally.

                    Tony Parker was similar to Westbrook (FG% down, assist down A:TO ratio up) although with a much better FG% and significantly less shots than Westbrook



                    Take that for what you will... but seems to me like Westbrook has been earned himself some well deserved criticism. Especially considering, aside from maybe Kidd, he had the best teammate on this list.
                    My opinion was OKC does not have many offensive weapons. In the playoffs, when you play the same team up to 7 times in 2 weeks and at more of a grind pace, there is plenty of time to prepare and adjust for the opponent.

                    Other players on other teams is sort of an apples to oranges example. I get your point but there are too many variables for it to be valid for anything other than an opinion. With that said, here is a comparison of Derrick Rose's and Westbrook's regular season stats:

                    37.4min/25.0pts/8.8-19.7fg/.445 fg%/1.6-4.8 3pa/.332 3pt%/5.9-6.9ft/ .858ft%/4.1reb/7.7ast/0.6blk/1.0stl/3.4to

                    34.7min/21.9pts/7.5-17.0fg/.442fg%/0.4-1.3 3pa/.3303pt%/6.5-7.7ft/.842ft%/4.6reb/8.2ast/0.4blk/1.9stl/3.9to

                    and playoff stats:

                    40.6 min/27.1pts/9.3-23.5fg/.396fg%/1.6-6.3 3pa/.248 3pt%/6.9-8.4ft/.828ft%/4.3reb/7.7ast/0.7blk/1.4stl/3.7to

                    37.5 min/23.8pts/7.9-20.2fg/.394ft%/0.8-2.8 3pa/.292 3pt%/7.1-8.4ft/.852 ft%/5.4reb/6.4ast/0.4blk/1.4stl/4.6to


                    In my opinion Westbrook is a phenomenal player who is just 22 with 3 NBA seasons under his belt. If the Raptors had a chance to pluck him from OKC in the summer of 2012 combined with what they already have and could acquire in next year's draft, I would do it in a heartbeat especially if the only thing standing in the way was cutting Calderon (back to topic of thread).

                    It is this very negative attitude and opinion of the Raptors signing one of the most promising young PG's in the league today that I hope helps propels him out of OKC. Considering Chicago has no one of Durant's abilities on its' roster and the similarity of their stats, I hope Westbrook has a desire to be 'the man' for lack of a better word. I hope he tires of the criticism as Durant continues to be squeakly clean and can do no wrong. I hope Perkins continues to be the @ss he appears to be and disses him with the Rondo crap all next year. I hope dissension sets in on the roster and his California friends in Toronto tell him the joys of playing in Raptorland.
                    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sun Oct 2, 2011, 05:41 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      My opinion was OKC does not have many offensive weapons. In the playoffs, when you play the same team up to 7 times in 2 weeks and at more of a grind pace, there is plenty of time to prepare and adjust for the opponent.

                      Other players on other teams is sort of an apples to oranges example. I get your point but there are too many variables for it to be valid for anything other than an opinion. With that said, here is a comparison of Derrick Rose's and Westbrook's regular season stats:

                      37.4min/25.0pts/8.8-19.7fg/.445 fg%/1.6-4.8 3pa/.332 3pt%/5.9-6.9ft/ .858ft%/4.1reb/7.7ast/0.6blk/1.0stl/3.4to
                      34.7min/21.9pts/7.5-17.0fg/.442fg%/0.4-1.3 3pa/.3303pt%/6.5-7.7ft/.842ft%/4.6reb/8.2 ast/0.4blk/1.9stl/3.9to

                      and playoff stats:

                      40.6 min/27.1pts/9.3-23.5fg/.396fg%/1.6-6.3 3pa/.248 3pt%/6.9-8.4ft/.828ft%/4.3reb/7.7ast/0.7blk/1.4stl/3.7to
                      37.5 min/23.8pts/7.9-20.2fg/.394ft%/0.8-2.8 3pa/.292 3pt%/7.1-8.4ft/.852 ft%/5.4reb/6.4ast/0.4blk/1.4stl/4.6to


                      In my opinion Westbrook is a phenomenal player who is just 22 with 3 NBA seasons under his belt. If the Raptors had a chance to pluck him from OKC in the summer of 2012 combined with what they already have and could acquire in next year's draft, I would do it in a heartbeat especially if the only thing standing in the way was cutting Calderon (back to topic of thread).

                      It is this very negative attitude and opinion of signing one of the most promising young PG's in the league today to the Raptors that I hope helps propels him out of OKC. Considering Chicago has no one of Durant's abilities on its' roster and the similarity of their stats, I hope Westbrook has a desire to be 'the man' for lack of a better word. I hope he tires of the criticism as Durant continues to be squeakly clean and can do no wrong. I hope Perkins continues to be the @ss he appears to be and disses him with the Rondo crap all next year. I hope dissension sets in on the roster and his California friends in Toronto tell him the joys of playing in Raptorland.
                      I'm not saying the Raps, if they ever had the opportunity (which I don't think they will but thats neither here nor there), shouldn't sign him. I think he is fun to watch, and is a talented player. I just think people have been too high on these scoring PGs yet few have proven they can take their team to the top. Even moreso that he decided to try and take games over himself when he had the best scorer in the league beside him.... think Dallas would have turned out the same if they didn't stick with going to Dirk?

                      As for OKC not having scoring options.... well they have, arguably, the best scorer in the game. They also have a great scoring 6th man in Harden. So what exactly do these other teams have:

                      Chicago.... Boozer and Deng?

                      Portland.... Aldridge and Mathews?

                      Dallas.... Nowitzki and Terry?

                      Memphis.... Randolph and?

                      NO.... West and?

                      Boston... Pierce and Ray. KG still has game.

                      SA.... Ginobli, Duncan and Hill



                      I don't know... its not like all these other teams are riddled with scoring options either. And not a single one of them have Durant, which pretty much give OKC an edge over most.

                      As for age.... well I can name a ton of NBA players who were young once and didn't do squat, didn't improve or didn't change. Not saying Westbrook will be like that, but age is often just a red herring
                      Last edited by GarbageTime; Sun Oct 2, 2011, 06:04 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                        I'm not saying the Raps, if they ever had the opportunity (which I don't think they will but thats neither here nor there), shouldn't sign him. I think he is fun to watch, and is a talented player. I just think people have been too high on these scoring PGs yet few have proven they can take their team to the top. Even moreso that he decided to try and take games over himself when he had the best scorer in the league beside him.... think Dallas would have turned out the same if they didn't stick with going to Dirk?

                        As for OKC not having scoring options.... well they have, arguably, the best scorer in the game. They also have a great scoring 6th man in Harden. So what exactly do these other teams have:

                        Chicago.... Boozer and Deng?

                        Portland.... Aldridge and Mathews?

                        Dallas.... Nowitzki and Terry?

                        Memphis.... Randolph and?

                        NO.... West and?

                        Boston... Pierce and Ray. KG still has game.

                        SA.... Ginobli, Duncan and Hill



                        I don't know... its not like all these other teams are riddled with scoring options either. And not a single one of them have Durant, which pretty much give OKC an edge over most.

                        As for age.... well I can name a ton of NBA players who were young once and didn't do squat, didn't improve or didn't change. Not saying Westbrook will be like that, but age is often just a red herring
                        The high scoring point guard is an old debate. Parker got the Spurs championships, Isiah got the Pistons championships, Magic Johnson got the Lakers championships, Billups got the Pistons a championship. PG's can score and win championships. There is no one set formula to winning a championship.

                        OKC does have the best scorer in the game and a good sixth man in Harden. Where have I disputed this? What I said was they have nothing very little after those 2 and Westbrook. That is the point. The Grizzlies and Mavs focus on containing Durant and not letting him do what he wants, not letting him get the ball where he normally gets it and that disrupts everything else OKC is trying to do. This is more an issue of Brooks with strategy and Presti with roster than Westbrook, in my opinion.


                        Porland has 6 players who scored more than 10 ppg.

                        Chicago had 4 players who scored more than 10ppg.

                        Dallas had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg.

                        Memphis had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg with Gay and 5 without (Allen upped his scoring).

                        NO had 6 players who scored more than 10ppg.

                        BOS had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg.

                        SA had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg.


                        What does OKC have?

                        OKC had 3 players who scored more than 10ppg after the trade of Jeff Green.

                        As for Westbrook's age and the comments made, he has done quite a bit more than squat and he has shown improvement every year in the league. He is not a finished product and the amount of criticism he has received is underserving considering OKC has made the playoffs 2 of the 3 years he has been in the league.
                        Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sun Oct 2, 2011, 07:24 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Matt52 wrote: View Post
                          The high scoring point guard is an old debate. Parker got the Spurs championships, Isiah got the Pistons championships, Magic Johnson got the Lakers championships, Billups got the Pistons a championship. PG's can score and win championships. There is no one set formula to winning a championship.

                          OKC does have the best scorer in the game and a good sixth man in Harden. Where have I disputed this? What I said was they have nothing very little after those 2 and Westbrook. That is the point. The Grizzlies and Mavs focus on containing Durant and not letting him do what he wants, not letting him get the ball where he normally gets it and that disrupts everything else OKC is trying to do. This is more an issue of Brooks with strategy and Presti with roster than Westbrook, in my opinion.


                          Porland has 6 players who scored more than 10 ppg.

                          Chicago had 4 players who scored more than 10ppg.

                          Dallas had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg.

                          Memphis had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg with Gay and 5 without (Allen upped his scoring).

                          NO had 6 players who scored more than 10ppg.

                          BOS had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg.

                          SA had 5 players who scored more than 10ppg.


                          What does OKC have?

                          OKC had 3 players who scored more than 10ppg after the trade of Jeff Green.

                          As for Westbrook's age and the comments made, he has done quite a bit more than squat and he has shown improvement every year in the league. He is not a finished product and the amount of criticism he has received is underserving considering OKC has made the playoffs 2 of the 3 years he has been in the league.
                          Tony Parker I'll give you. But lets not neglect to mention that Magic was one of the best passers in the history of the NBA. No one in their right mind would call him a scoring PG. Billups has never clocked more than 13 FGA a game for his career... thats supposed to be a "scoring" PG? Thats probably only a bit above average for any starter in the NBA, let alone a perennial all-star. Isaih averaged 15 and 16 FGA a game during his championship seasons.... but took the same amount for the playoffs in his championship years...thats what three quarters of what Westbrook was jacking up this post season? (I won't even get into how we are talking 2 shooting PGs (Parker and Isaih) over a 30 year span here... )

                          On top of that there is a HUGE difference between a scoring PG and a PG who can score. HUGE. Nash, Chris Paul and Deron Williams each drop 20 a game for a season on average... but you don't hear people talk about them as scoring PGs.

                          I'm also not saying Westbrook is necessarily a shoot first PG. But he was these playoffs..... and even worse he was trying to do it with THE BEST SCORER IN THE NBA 2 YEARS RUNNING BESIDE HIM. That is just an absolutely terrible decision. There is no way Durant should be taking the same amount of shots in more minutes than, well, maybe anyone in the league let alone one of his teammates.

                          And if 10 pts a game is a good scoring average, then all of a sudden OKC has 4 aswell with Ibaka who averaged 10 a game... unless 9.9 is getting excluded. So suddenly they are right in the same boat as most of these other teams.

                          Ofcourse if we are talking 10 a game for the postseason, those numbers you mentioned change to... Boston only had 4, Memphis only had 4, Chicago 4, Dallas 4, NO 4, SA 4.... seems pretty close to equal to me.

                          Finally I never said he did squat, nor am I trying to discredit the guy... and yes he has shown improvement, and I never said he wouldn't show more. But age is still a red herring.... everyone who has ever played in the NBA was 'young' and in the NBA once (well excluding a few).

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                            Tony Parker I'll give you. But lets not neglect to mention that Magic was one of the best passers in the history of the NBA. No one in their right mind would call him a scoring PG. Billups has never clocked more than 13 FGA a game for his career... thats supposed to be a "scoring" PG? Thats probably only a bit above average for any starter in the NBA, let alone a perennial all-star. Isaih averaged 15 and 16 FGA a game during his championship seasons.... but took the same amount for the playoffs in his championship years...thats what three quarters of what Westbrook was jacking up this post season? (I won't even get into how we are talking 2 shooting PGs (Parker and Isaih) over a 30 year span here... )

                            On top of that there is a HUGE difference between a scoring PG and a PG who can score. HUGE. Nash, Chris Paul and Deron Williams each drop 20 a game for a season on average... but you don't hear people talk about them as scoring PGs.

                            I'm also not saying Westbrook is necessarily a shoot first PG. But he was these playoffs..... and even worse he was trying to do it with THE BEST SCORER IN THE NBA 2 YEARS RUNNING BESIDE HIM. That is just an absolutely terrible decision. There is no way Durant should be taking the same amount of shots in more minutes than, well, maybe anyone in the league let alone one of his teammates.

                            And if 10 pts a game is a good scoring average, then all of a sudden OKC has 4 aswell with Ibaka who averaged 10 a game... unless 9.9 is getting excluded. So suddenly they are right in the same boat as most of these other teams.

                            Ofcourse if we are talking 10 a game for the postseason, those numbers you mentioned change to... Boston only had 4, Memphis only had 4, Chicago 4, Dallas 4, NO 4, SA 4.... seems pretty close to equal to me.

                            Finally I never said he did squat, nor am I trying to discredit the guy... and yes he has shown improvement, and I never said he wouldn't show more. But age is still a red herring.... everyone who has ever played in the NBA was 'young' and in the NBA once (well excluding a few).
                            Again the scoring PG leading a championship team is an old debate. It has nothing to do with what is being discussed here. The game has also changed in the last 30 years in which there have only been 10 teams to win the championship with 3 of those teams winning just once (PHI, MIA, DAL) and 1 team twice (HOU). That leaves 6 teams winning 25 championships. Hopefully someone is picking up my point here because I've lost it, lol.

                            (off topic, how many championships have Nash, Paul, and Williams won?)

                            Back to Westbrook, the guy just finished his third NBA season. Why the beef with him? If you are not trying to discredit the guy, why the backlash in trying to position the team to be able to make a run at signing him sign in Toronto?

                            I think you are missing my point on Westbrook in the playoffs. The way the Thunder have been built it is a two and a half men (Durant, Westbrook and Harden).

                            When the defense freezes out Durant, where is the ball going to go? Ibaka? Collison? Perkins? Sefolosha? Who else is on the team capable of scoring or creating their own? Look at the roster.

                            I picked 10 points a game because it is double digits and it was striking compared to the other teams. How about we look at it from another perspective. The total number of points scored by the top 6 scorers points NOT counting the top 2 scorers (i.e. 3-6) using playoff stats:

                            Porland has 37.1 points.

                            Chicago has 45.1 points.

                            Dallas has 38.1 points.

                            Memphis has 42.6 points.

                            NO has 38.3 points.

                            BOS has 42.8 points.

                            SA has 38.6.


                            As for OKC, they have 34.3.

                            If I had the time and inclination to break down the percentage of total points being scored by players 3-6 compared to the team, I feel confident it would show that OKC's supporting cast is contributing much less than other teams - especially considering Durant and Westbrook themselves were combining for 52.4 points which is more than any other duo in the playoffs.

                            My point remains, OKC has a team geared around two players. If Westbrook has the ball and the other teams' defense is geared towards denying Durant the ball and/or making him catch it out of position (and there being little other credible scoring options either through coach's system or GM's roster) Westbrook is going to end up taking a lot of shots.

                            I'm not saying Westbrook played awesome in the playoffs - far from it. I'm not saying he couldn't have done a better job getting Durant involved.

                            What I am saying is I believe he can and will continue to improve - especially considering he came out of college labelled a combo guard. What I am saying is if the Raptors can place themselves in a position to go after him by waiving Calderon, I'd do it. In my opinion he has franchise talent and he is not far behind Derrick Rose. Needless to say he would be the best player on the Raptors and for a team in desperate need of a talent influx that would be a very good thing.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              Again the scoring PG leading a championship team is an old debate. It has nothing to do with what is being discussed here. The game has also changed in the last 30 years in which there have only been 10 teams to win the championship with 3 of those teams winning just once (PHI, MIA, DAL) and 1 team twice (HOU). That leaves 6 teams winning 25 championships. Hopefully someone is picking up my point here because I've lost it, lol.

                              (off topic, how many championships have Nash, Paul, and Williams won?)

                              Back to Westbrook, the guy just finished his third NBA season. Why the beef with him? If you are not trying to discredit the guy, why the backlash in trying to position the team to be able to make a run at signing him sign in Toronto?

                              I think you are missing my point on Westbrook in the playoffs. The way the Thunder have been built it is a two and a half men (Durant, Westbrook and Harden).

                              When the defense freezes out Durant, where is the ball going to go? Ibaka? Collison? Perkins? Sefolosha? Who else is on the team capable of scoring or creating their own? Look at the roster.

                              I picked 10 points a game because it is double digits and it was striking compared to the other teams. How about we look at it from another perspective. The total number of points scored by the top 6 scorers points NOT counting the top 2 scorers (i.e. 3-6) using playoff stats:

                              Porland has 37.1 points.

                              Chicago has 45.1 points.

                              Dallas has 38.1 points.

                              Memphis has 42.6 points.

                              NO has 38.3 points.

                              BOS has 42.8 points.

                              SA has 38.6.


                              As for OKC, they have 34.3.

                              If I had the time and inclination to break down the percentage of total points being scored by players 3-6 compared to the team, I feel confident it would show that OKC's supporting cast is contributing much less than other teams - especially considering Durant and Westbrook themselves were combining for 52.4 points which is more than any other duo in the playoffs.

                              My point remains, OKC has a team geared around two players. If Westbrook has the ball and the other teams' defense is geared towards denying Durant the ball and/or making him catch it out of position (and there being little other credible scoring options either through coach's system or GM's roster) Westbrook is going to end up taking a lot of shots.

                              I'm not saying Westbrook played awesome in the playoffs - far from it. I'm not saying he couldn't have done a better job getting Durant involved.

                              What I am saying is I believe he can and will continue to improve - especially considering he came out of college labelled a combo guard. What I am saying is if the Raptors can place themselves in a position to go after him by waiving Calderon, I'd do it. In my opinion he has franchise talent and he is not far behind Derrick Rose. Needless to say he would be the best player on the Raptors and for a team in desperate need of a talent influx that would be a very good thing.

                              its kind of tough to look at those teams and neglect the approx. 40 FGA and the almost 80 minutes Durant and Westbrook consumed for their team. Ofcourse there will be less scoring when those guys likely took more shots than any other 2 teammates in the league. Maybe Lebron and Wade matched them.

                              Considering Westbrook had, the worst % on his team (? or close to it if not), 4.6 turnovers a game and tied with Durant for the most shots, its not exactly a stretch to think his teammates may have actually scored if he passed the ball more.


                              Again I've always like Westbrook. I think he's exciting to watch, he's a competitor and he's intense. Hopefully this was a learning experience for him.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                                They actually already have stipulations like this in most NBA contracts.
                                Remember when Monta Ellis was injured on the Moped? Golden State was in FULL right to Release him and void his contract.
                                Most dangerous activities are included on this 'list'.
                                It's good they have that. I didn't know.

                                Truthfully, I'd like the NBA to have non-guaranteed contracts with NO stipulations. You start to suck the minute you signed your big contract? Goodbye. You bring guns to the locker room? Bye. You hit your girlfriend? You make inappropriate comments about the coach to the media/Twitter? Buh-bye.

                                But I realize that such extremes would never get approved. I truly believe the NBA needs something to eliminate some of the nonsense. Perhaps I'm a jaded old man but I just think the NBA needs to grow up a bit.
                                your pal,
                                ebrian

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X