Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Assuming the deal is approved, what comes next?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    Wow I cant believe how pessimistic everyone on this forum is about the potential of this team. Unbelievable actually, anyway I will not argue, all that I will say is that I disagree with extreme prejudice.
    As Tim W and Matt52 have said, part of it is that we're optimistic for a future that's still a few years away.

    But I'll also play the bad guy here and say that every year before training camp opens, optimism springs eternal. It was the same thing last year, a number of people on these forums thought the Raps could make the playoffs, and look how that ended up. Obviously there are always factors like injuries, etc that contribute, but it's so much easier to be positive about the immediate future when games aren't being played.

    Potential takes time and a LOT of games/experience to develop, and for some reason people forget that at the start of the season, instead basing their predictions on how the season would play out if that potential were realized immediately, or on the idea that the players will grasp a coach's system immediately and begin playing lockdown D from game 1, etc. These things take time, and in a 66-game season you simply don't have it.

    The advantage in a shortened season is with the veteran teams, the teams with continuity and superior talent, who can win by virtue of those things alone. And as others have said, spending a year giving as much playing time as possible to the younger guys so you can get an idea of what the team has and what it needs going forward is by no means a wasted season. I would instead argue it's the wisest course of action and the best way to position the team for long-term and sustained success.

    Comment


    • #47
      Tim W. wrote: View Post
      I don't think there are very many around here ho are pessimistic about the potential of this team. I think most people are actually quite optimistic. The difference, however, is that most of us realize that it will take at least a couple of years to realize that potential. The Raptors are still a very young team and still need to develop.

      The year the Raptors won the Atlantic Division, you have to realize that they also had a veteran laden squad and the division was weak. Anthony Parker, Jorge Garbajosa and Nesterovic were HUGE contributors, and the Raptors have no one on the team like that right now.

      I am curious why you believe the Raptors brain trust agrees with you. I don't know where it is, but somewhere I read a quote from Colangelo talking about how, basically, the team is not going to be spending money this offseason and continue along the same path they're on. What he seems to be focused on is the 2012 offseason when the Raptors will have around $24 million in cap room and (hopefully) a top 3-5 pick in a strong draft.

      And I don't think ANYONE here considers this season a wash. If you think that then you don't seem to understand our point of view at all. This season should focus on development, not winning. That doesn't mean it's a wash. With such a young team, they all need lots of playing time to develop and for management to see exactly what they have. Is Bayless a legit starting PG? Will James Johnson fulfill the potential that made Colangelo think about drafting him when he came out? Is Ed Davis a future All-Star? Is DeRozan? Lot of questions to be answered and the only way to answer them is to play.
      Colangelo said that we will not be making any MAJOR moves this offseason, as in trying to go after guys like Marc Gasol, Nene, and other guys that are gonna sign for 10+ million and multiple years. That is not what I am suggesting either, I am suggesting getting role players to fill spots in our roster (we only have 10 guys, filling those spots is inevitable). Colangelo and Casey both came out and said that they would be looking to bring in a C for defensive purposes and move Bargnani to the 4, I dont think that C is going to be some min. contract guy.

      Arguing about this is a waste of my time right now, because we are obviously not going to change each others minds, I suggest we wait 3 weeks or so for the free agency period to play out, and then comment on this further.
      "Defense wins championships."

      Comment


      • #48
        Matt52 wrote: View Post
        Clearly you have not read all the comments outside of a glance. There are a lot of optimistic posters - some negative too - but the optimistic ones are looking at 1-2 years down the road.

        Outside of one year deals, the Raptors cannot add money without losing flexibility. Doing so also significantly hurts draft positioning chances (although nothing is guaranteed with the lottery).

        I have no doubt the Raptors will do something, it is just a matter of when and what is in the best interests of the franchise long term.
        What you guys are suggesting is to intentionally restrain from trying to improve this team this year. Which is something I have a fundamental aversion too, very disappointing to hear other raptors fans suggesting this line of action. I can understand saving our cap flexibility for 2012 when D.howard, chris paul, and deron williams will be available, there are ways of doing this that include filling the gaps in our team this year, so that by the time those guys come in, we will already be a winning team. That is how you win a championship, you bring a superstar into an already good team, to take them over the top.

        IF we are as hopeless as you think already, then we will surely be getting a good pick anyway, regardless of whether we bring in some role players, so dont worry about that. You are right the raptors will do something, it will be this offseason, and it will not be huge.
        "Defense wins championships."

        Comment


        • #49
          SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
          What you guys are suggesting is to intentionally restrain from trying to improve this team this year. Which is something I have a fundamental aversion too, very disappointing to hear other raptors fans suggesting this line of action. I can understand saving our cap flexibility for 2012 when D.howard, chris paul, and deron williams will be available, there are ways of doing this that include filling the gaps in our team this year, so that by the time those guys come in, we will already be a winning team. That is how you win a championship, you bring a superstar into an already good team, to take them over the top.

          IF we are as hopeless as you think already, then we will surely be getting a good pick anyway, regardless of whether we bring in some role players, so dont worry about that. You are right the raptors will do something, it will be this offseason, and it will not be huge.
          Intentionally restraining from trying to improve? Hardly. Play the young players to see what they can do and move forward with those players. Give those players an opportunity to improve in game situations so they are ready for when the team is a contender.

          Personally, I think you have the bolded backwards. You draft a superstar, build around him, and then sign veteran role players to get you over the top.

          Patience is key, in my opinion. Huge things will be done within the next 8 months - they are just going to be closer to the 8 month mark (late June/early July 2012).

          Comment


          • #50
            Three areas that are a problem right now for the Raptors, or where there are question marks are PG, SF and C. The questions mostly revolve around "Do the guys we have include a starter for that position?"

            PG will sort itself out if Bayless gets enough playing time to determine if he can continue as he ended the year, or was that just an example of a guy with something to prove playing against a bunch of teams with nothing to prove or against bench players who got some burn while starters were being rested up for the playoffs. At the end of this season BC will have a pretty good idea of what his next move is wrt PG position. Quite frankly I would be happy to see JC get plenty of rest time this season. It will be a tough one on players. I think he can help more next year.

            SF position needs to be evaluated. JJ should get all the rope he needs to either hang himself or build a swing bridge. Kleiza should be healed. BC needs to maybe bring someone in on a short term 1-2 year contract while JJ and LK duke it out for starting position. By the end of the year BC will know whether JJ is a starter, or will be coming off the bench next season and can plan accordingly.

            Casey should play Bargnani at PF where he can concentrate on face-up D. As has been mentioned, he is not completely terrible at this, and this is the season where a defensive specialist coach gets to see if he can be taught help defense. Ed and Amir can also play some time at this position.

            BC should bring in a Center, on a 1-2 year contract who is a reasonably good defender, who doesn't have to be taught help defense. In this way Casey can put together a defensive system without one of the main parts having to start from ground zero. Someone who can play maybe 20-25 minutes a game and not hurt you. Amir, Ed and Alabi can also take turns here.

            What this does is allow Casey to have a reasonable chance of seeing if the team can function in a defensive system. Quite frankly, with Bargnani playing center, you will never be able to find out. With Calderon playing big time PG minutes, you will never be able to find out. Same with Weems last year, and LK to a lesser extent. We know Amir can play good defense on PF and reasonable D on centers. Not so much Ed Davis, since the bulk of his playing time came at the end of the season last year where some of his best games were against mediocre opponents, so questions need to be answered there as well.

            Demar gets a chance to show Casey what he can do defensively and continues to be one of the main scoring threats. AB should improve offensively if he doesn't have to play C.

            The players brought in on 1-2 year contracts are low salary positions.

            All of this assumes that it is likely JV will be able to have some impact in year 1 and more impact in year 2. And that the Raptors will find a diamond in this years draft. It answers some questions at PG, SF and PF. SG and C are probably already answered or will be by years end. It doesn't screw up the Raptors flexibility in two years and leaves them with lots of cap space to spend in the areas they need to, once the fundamental questions about PG, SF and PF have been answered.

            Puffer

            Comment


            • #51
              SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
              Colangelo said that we will not be making any MAJOR moves this offseason, as in trying to go after guys like Marc Gasol, Nene, and other guys that are gonna sign for 10+ million and multiple years. That is not what I am suggesting either, I am suggesting getting role players to fill spots in our roster (we only have 10 guys, filling those spots is inevitable). Colangelo and Casey both came out and said that they would be looking to bring in a C for defensive purposes and move Bargnani to the 4, I dont think that C is going to be some min. contract guy.

              Arguing about this is a waste of my time right now, because we are obviously not going to change each others minds, I suggest we wait 3 weeks or so for the free agency period to play out, and then comment on this further.
              SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
              What you guys are suggesting is to intentionally restrain from trying to improve this team this year. Which is something I have a fundamental aversion too, very disappointing to hear other raptors fans suggesting this line of action. I can understand saving our cap flexibility for 2012 when D.howard, chris paul, and deron williams will be available, there are ways of doing this that include filling the gaps in our team this year, so that by the time those guys come in, we will already be a winning team. That is how you win a championship, you bring a superstar into an already good team, to take them over the top.

              IF we are as hopeless as you think already, then we will surely be getting a good pick anyway, regardless of whether we bring in some role players, so dont worry about that. You are right the raptors will do something, it will be this offseason, and it will not be huge.
              Whether you like it or not, sometimes you have to limit yourself a little in the present in order to ensure a healthier future. That's life, especially in the NBA.

              Read this...
              http://basketball.realgm.com/blog/214274

              And you seem to be misunderstanding our feelings about the current roster. You're saying things like we think it's "hopeless". Is that really what you're getting from this discussion. I have a lot of optimism about the future, but that doesn't mean I think they'll be immediately good. I think my kids are incredibly smart, but at 6 and 9, I'm not ready to enrol them in University just yet.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
              Follow me on Twitter.

              Comment


              • #52
                if bargnani is going to be playing the 4 he sure as hell shouldn't be starting. Ed should definitely start this season and if anyone is going to be traded bargnani should be the first one to go, if there is a reasonable deal available hopefully involving a lottery pick.

                Comment


                • #53
                  If Bargnani is so brutally bad as some here point out repeatedly, then who the blazes is going to accept that big fat contract and dump a lottery pick on the Raptors to boot?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    stretch wrote: View Post
                    If Bargnani is so brutally bad as some here point out repeatedly, then who the blazes is going to accept that big fat contract and dump a lottery pick on the Raptors to boot?
                    well to us he sucks because we need a defensive C not a offensive C that can drop 20 points and plays in the perimeter. He'll be worth something to teams who aren't very strong offensively like the Bobcats.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                      well to us he sucks because we need a defensive C not a offensive C that can drop 20 points and plays in the perimeter. He'll be worth something to teams who aren't very strong offensively like the Bobcats.
                      Of all the arguments that can be made, one that portrays us as a good offensive team when we replace Bargnani with a defensive center, isn't a valid one. E.g.: with JJ at sf (assuming he'll start for now) we'd have one player in the starting line-up that shoots over 25% from 3

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        stretch wrote: View Post
                        If Bargnani is so brutally bad as some here point out repeatedly, then who the blazes is going to accept that big fat contract and dump a lottery pick on the Raptors to boot?
                        There is a vocal minority that believes that Bargnani is a bad player. Most, like me, are just sick of the fact that he simply hasn't improved in the areas that he needs to improve on and overall simply doesn't help the team much. I still think he's got some value (I don't know how much) because, just as there are still fans who think with the right system his weaknesses can be covered, there are GMs out there that believe the same thing. And for the same reason that Colangelo picked him despite his rather blatant and fatal defense and rebounding flaws, another GM might decide they'd want to gamble on him.

                        Now, I doubt Bargnani, by himself, will net a lottery pick now, but I think he might be able to be packaged with something to possibly get one. I think the summer of 2010 was the last time you could hope to get a lottery pick for him, but that bus has pretty much sailed.
                        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                        Follow me on Twitter.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                          What you guys are suggesting is to intentionally restrain from trying to improve this team this year. Which is something I have a fundamental aversion too, very disappointing to hear other raptors fans suggesting this line of action. I can understand saving our cap flexibility for 2012 when D.howard, chris paul, and deron williams will be available, there are ways of doing this that include filling the gaps in our team this year, so that by the time those guys come in, we will already be a winning team. That is how you win a championship, you bring a superstar into an already good team, to take them over the top.

                          IF we are as hopeless as you think already, then we will surely be getting a good pick anyway, regardless of whether we bring in some role players, so dont worry about that. You are right the raptors will do something, it will be this offseason, and it will not be huge.
                          I have to agree with you. We HAVE to sign some players whether we want it or not. I am not about signing a guy like Shane Battier because he neither deserves it nor is worth the money for us at our current state. But a guy like Kwame Brown I have to agree. We will get better regardless of who we sign this offseason. It couldn't really get much worse than 22 wins The perfect way to do that is to bring serviceable,not very expensive experienced guys on a 1-2 year contracts. Would we benefit now if sign/trade a guy like Caron Butler - YES. Would it benefit us it the long run - it depends on what happens summer 2012. Don't get me wron - I am not saying we should get Caron... I'm just saying we have to sign someone that we need to help the team DEVELOP and WIN in the same time.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            FooTara wrote: View Post
                            I have to agree with you. We HAVE to sign some players whether we want it or not. I am not about signing a guy like Shane Battier because he neither deserves it nor is worth the money for us at our current state. But a guy like Kwame Brown I have to agree. We will get better regardless of who we sign this offseason. It couldn't really get much worse than 22 wins The perfect way to do that is to bring serviceable,not very expensive experienced guys on a 1-2 year contracts. Would we benefit now if sign/trade a guy like Caron Butler - YES. Would it benefit us it the long run - it depends on what happens summer 2012. Don't get me wron - I am not saying we should get Caron... I'm just saying we have to sign someone that we need to help the team DEVELOP and WIN in the same time.
                            I'd agree if the thing the Raptors didn't need most is a high draft pick next year. That is the number one priority simply because they don't have a player good enough to build around and the easiest way for a team like the Raptors to do that is through the draft.
                            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                            Follow me on Twitter.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              I'd agree if the thing the Raptors didn't need most is a high draft pick next year. That is the number one priority simply because they don't have a player good enough to build around and the easiest way for a team like the Raptors to do that is through the draft.
                              Yes,that sounds right but that would seem like an year of tanking. Also some might debate it isn't the greatest development system when the team gains only Ls for the young players.(maybe I am wrong but without Reggie we are the second youngest team in the league) I desperately hope that the guys we have now - Amir,Derozan and maybe Ed andJ.V. would become all star level players. You don't see it wrong - I did put Amir on first place - I have very high expectations on him. I thinkg he is VERY underrated especially after last season. I mean - he guarded the best big man on the opposing teams,he battled through injuries,he was VERY effective on the floor but most importantly he works to get better and he WANTS to be better.Those qualities should take him to the next level. He might lack the talent to be superstar in the league but he has the work etic to become at least an above average,or all star candidate player. Everybody talk about Derozan,Davis and even Jv now.Those players should bring better free agent signings in the future.And also signing player like Kwame Brown on 1-2 year now for example wouldn't really hurt our chances of getting our "great" player in a potentially very rich draft class and keep with the development of our youth. Not many teams have won a championship without one superstar player but I really liked the last Detroit Pistons's championship team. They didn't really have a major superstar although wallace,rip and billups were all stars.(okay the offense seemed sloooow sometimes but the defense was great)
                              Anyway I agree that the easiest way to obtain that player is through the draft but that is also risky(see Bargnani and many other top draft picks that didn't really reach the potential they should have). My plan seems like reducing the chances to get the great player in the draft but increases the chances of growing the team chemistry and winning the free agent market(also rich in 2012) Maybe that is not taking the shortcut but I would get some sightseeing on the way
                              Last edited by FooTara; Mon Nov 28th, 2011, 04:09 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                FooTara wrote: View Post
                                Yes,that sounds right but that would seem like an year of tanking. Also some might debate it isn't the greatest development system when the team gains only Ls for the young players.(maybe I am wrong but without Reggie we are the second youngest team in the league) I desperately hope that the guys we have now - Amir,Derozan and maybe Ed andJ.V. would become all star level players. You don't see it wrong - I did put Amir on first place - I have very high expectations on him. I thinkg he is VERY underrated especially after last season. I mean - he guarded the best big man on the opposing teams,he battled through injuries,he was VERY effective on the floor but most importantly he works to get better and he WANTS to be better.Those qualities should take him to the next level. He might lack the talent to be superstar in the league but he has the work etic to become at least an above average,or all star candidate player. Everybody talk about Derozan,Davis and even Jv now.Those players should bring better free agent signings in the future.And also signing player like Kwame Brown on 1-2 year now for example wouldn't really hurt our chances of getting our "great" player in a potentially very rich draft class and keep with the development of our youth. Not many teams have won a championship without one superstar player but I really liked the last Detroit Pistons's championship team. They didn't really have a major superstar although wallace,rip and billups were all stars.(okay the offense seemed sloooow sometimes but the defense was great)
                                Anyway I agree that the easiest way to obtain that player is through the draft but that is also risky(see Bargnani and many other top draft picks that didn't really reach the potential they should have). My plan seems like reducing the chances to get the great player in the draft but increases the chances of growing the team chemistry and winning the free agent market(also rich in 2012)
                                Ultimately, you want young players to learn in a winning system, but in order to BECOME a winning system, the Raptors need that guy they can build around. It's a catch-22.

                                As for Amir, I think a lot of knowledgeable fans don't underrate him. I put him on my keeper list, definitely. The most ridiculous excuse I've heard about trading away Amir is that he's easily replaceable. Because the NBA is full of 24 old, athletic big men that hustle, defend, rebound, score efficiently and have a good head on their shoulders? Really?
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                                Follow me on Twitter.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X