Amir Johnson as our starting center?

[Hugmenot]

Then Bargnani would have 66 DNP-CDs beside his name :P

As much as I hope all players will be treated equal under Casey's regime, as long as Bargnani is on this roster, preferential treatment towards him seems likely.

Can you hate more? Your hate has already spilled over to a new coach by insinuating he will likely play favorites before he even coached one game for the Raptors.

[Apollo]

Why force Davis or Amir into a position they shouldn't be playing?

Both are solid defensive 4's with Davis having the upside to being a very good defensive player at the PF spot.

Let all players come to camp and battle for the position at the 4. If defence is as important as the organization is claiming then Davis or Johnson will be the starting 4.

For the 5 spot Colangelo needs to go out and find a journeyman to fill that position until Jonas is ready to play it.

They won't be forcing Ed into anything if he comes to camp having reached his off-season goal. He'll be just fine.

[GarbageTime]

Can you hate more? Your hate has already spilled over to a new coach by insinuating he will likely play favorites before he even coached one game for the Raptors.

how is Nilanka 'hating' on the coach? I don't think its at all unreasonable to believe that after 5 years of bad defense we'll still see another, will still be a bad defender that the team needs to 'hide', and Bargnani won't be held completely accountable (that would destroy his trade value and leave the team with 10 mil dead weight on the bench).

I don't think its a matter of Casey playing favorites... its a matter of unavoidable limitations on what can be done with this team and Bargnani.

Casey got credit for what he did with Dallas and Dirk.... unfortunately this team is not Dallas (a team of vets vs young guys), does not yet have Tyson Chandler (top defensive C vs no one... not throwing Alabi's name anywhere yet) and Andrea is not Dirk (a superstar vet vs whatever one feels like calling Bargnani).

I honestly am not expecting major changes with this team. Slower paced offense and more zone and thats about it. Hope I'm wrong.

[Apollo]

When Kevin O'Neil arrived here it was liv=ke somebody flipped a switch. Their defense greatly improved and their offense when down the crapper. They didn't make many roster moves that year, just a coaching change. Coaches can have a big impact. I think defense will improve but we're talking later in the season, not right away.

[Nilanka]

Can you hate more? Your hate has already spilled over to a new coach by insinuating he will likely play favorites before he even coached one game for the Raptors.

My "insinuation" comes from the fact that if Bargnani was given minutes based on defensive effort, he'd never get off the bench. $40 million riding the pine, decreasing in trade value by the minute.

The realist in me says that Colangelo would never allow that to happen under his watch, regardless of whether he wants Bargnani to shine, or he wants to showcase him for a future trade.

Bargnani will get minutes as long as he's on this team. Period.

[Hugmenot]

My "insinuation" comes from the fact that if Bargnani was given minutes based on defensive effort, he'd never get off the bench. $40 million riding the pine, decreasing in trade value by the minute.

The realist in me says that Colangelo would never allow that to happen under his watch, regardless of whether he wants Bargnani to shine, or he wants to showcase him for a future trade.

Bargnani will get minutes as long as he's on this team. Period.

There is a huge gap between disagreeing with ESPN that Bargnani is the Raptors best player (#80-something in the league) and believing he does not deserve any minute.

Rationality left the building.

[Hugmenot]

I don't think its a matter of Casey playing favorites... its a matter of unavoidable limitations on what can be done with this team and Bargnani.

Are you saying Casey will play Bargnani - despite his obvious liabilities - because his other option are worse?

What Nilanka saying is Casey will only play Bargnani because of favoritism and that all other options would be better. That's just plain crazy in my opinion.

I honestly am not expecting major changes with this team. Slower paced offense and more zone and thats about it. Hope I'm wrong.

Neither do I. I do expect better results this year because of the experience gained by the younger players and the hope the Raptors will be healthier this year.

Barring any major personel changes, my prediction is the Raptors will win more games this shortened season than they did last year.

[Nilanka]

There is a huge gap between disagreeing with ESPN that Bargnani is the Raptors best player (#80-something in the league) and believing he does not deserve any minute.

Rationality left the building.

Are we not talking about defensive effort under Casey? Does Casey seem like a guy who would reward extra minutes for hitting open 3's, while blowing defensive coverages?

Rationality sure has left the building...along with his friend, Common Sense.

[Tim W.]

There is a huge gap between disagreeing with ESPN that Bargnani is the Raptors best player (#80-something in the league) and believing he does not deserve any minute.

Rationality left the building.

I think the point is that if Casey is going to truly hold players accountable on the defensive end, then Bargnani is most likely going to struggle to get consistent minutes. Sam Mitchell tried a little of that and people complained he didn't give Bargnani a chance.

[GarbageTime]

Are you saying Casey will play Bargnani - despite his obvious liabilities - because his other option are worse?

What Nilanka saying is Casey will only play Bargnani because of favoritism and that all other options would be better. That's just plain crazy in my opinion.

Neither do I. I do expect better results this year because of the experience gained by the younger players and the hope the Raptors will be healthier this year.

Barring any major personel changes, my prediction is the Raptors will win more games this shortened season than they did last year.

I'm saying it won't matter. He'll play Bargnani because he has to. The team is not in a position to afford benching a $10 mil a year for 4 years contract. If Bargnani can't be useful to the team, he needs to NOT be a dead weight contract. Bargnani may on the occasional game get benched. Maybe even out of the starting line up for a game or two. But he will still get constant playing time... holding a player accountable, atleast thats in Bargnani's contractual position, has limits.

And not to speak for Nilanka he never once hinted at Casey playing favorites. That was simply your twisted interpretation.

[Nilanka]

Nilanka saying is Casey will only play Bargnani because of favoritism and that all other options would be better. That's just plain crazy in my opinion.

Actually, I never said anything about other options being better (or worse), but nice work putting words in my mouth.

My point is that Bargnani has worn the red quarterback (don't hit me) jersey ever since he arrived in Toronto. He's been given chance, after chance, after chance, after chance to prove he can be a COMPLETE player, and has failed time and time again. Yet inexplicably, the brass is still holding out hope that he can become worthy of a #1 pick....and there's no reason for us to think otherwise now that Casey has arrived.

If Bargnani maintains his aloofness on defense, sure Casey might bench him for a quarter. But what happens if the same mistakes are made next quarter, and the next game, and the next month, and so on? Do you actually see Casey reducing Bargnani's minutes permanently? Colangelo has too much invested in Bargnani (financially and emotionally) to let him rot on the bench.

Anyways, at the risk of turning this thread into yet another Bargnani debate, this will be my last response regarding Bargnani.

[sleepz]

They won't be forcing Ed into anything if he comes to camp having reached his off-season goal. He'll be just fine.

I'm not sure if gaining additional weight makes him a 5 though. I really like him at the 4 and why do we want him to change his game and position when we have a potenial 5 on the team next year?

I could be wrong but I think him being at the 4 also allows him to play to his strength which is weak side help. I'd rather him coming off the 4 to help out then at the 5 as I find most of the centres in the league are camped underneath the bucket.

[sleepz]

Then Bargnani would have 66 DNP-CDs beside his name :P

As much as I hope all players will be treated equal under Casey's regime, as long as Bargnani is on this roster, preferential treatment towards him seems likely.

All the Bargnani-is-a-power-forward nonsense, combined with Casey's attempt to "hide" him on defense, is evidence of a player who has been given the benefit of the doubt for faaaaaar too long, and there's little reason to think that will change.

Lol, Bargnani will always get burn because he can score and this team does lack that ability. If I was coach he would always play because he can fill it up at times, but I'm not going to forcefeed any player minutes that are undeserved as that culture is cancerous.

I'm not down with preferrential treatment and if Casey steps in and does this he probably won't last long, not because he's not pleasing the GM but because it will result in many L's.

I just think that going forward this team needs to stop appeasing "core" players because quite frankly the talent is not at the point where anyone should be an untouchable or is a cornerstone. Let them get to camp, see who best fits the system and what the coach is trying to accomplish and take it from there. It's the only way to go at this point. You can't give preferrential treatment to any player on this team, including one who the GM has deemed "the enigma".

[Apollo]

I'm not sure if gaining additional weight makes him a 5 though. I really like him at the 4 and why do we want him to change his game and position when we have a potenial 5 on the team next year?

I could be wrong but I think him being at the 4 also allows him to play to his strength which is weak side help. I'd rather him coming off the 4 to help out then at the 5 as I find most of the centres in the league are camped underneath the bucket.

Well define the terms "center" and "power forward" to me in that case because I need to understand your definitions of those terms before I go any further down that line. What makes Joakim Noah a center?

My definition of a center is whoever the coach slots in at center. Whether or not that player is an effective center is another matter. I feel Davis would be an effective center if he added the muscle mass. The muscle mass means improved strength and ability to stand his ground. He's an effective defender and attacks the boards. That's all the Raptors need if he brings the size.

[Nilanka]

Well define the terms "center" and "power forward" to me in that case because I need to understand your definitions of those terms before I go any further down that line. What makes Joakim Noah a center?

My definition of a center is whoever the coach slots in at center. Whether or not that player is an effective center is another matter. I feel Davis would be an effective center if he added the muscle mass. The muscle mass means improved strength and ability to stand his ground. He's an effective defender and attacks the boards. That's all the Raptors need if he brings the size.

If Davis is moved to centre, what would the plan be going forward once Jonas arrives? Or would Davis play the 5 for this season only?