Chisholm: The Raptors should consider moving Barbosa and Amir

[j bean]

I hit back by mistake and wiped out the poll I was setting up.

The poll was essentially do you think the Raptors should:

1) trade Barbosa
2) trade Amir
3) trade both
4) keep both


Personally my thoughts are no one should be untouchable given we just came off a 22 win season. If either could return another first round pick (like 20-ish or lower) I'd send either packing without a second thought.

Keep Amir
Trade Barbosa

[mcHAPPY]

I expect Kobongo to either rise or declare next year but yeah, absolutely. There's a ton of talent there in the mid section of the draft.

NBADraft.net has Kabongo at 15.

I am guilty of placing too much emphasis on a small sample size of freshman's games. I thought Kabongo would likely stay a second year after the rough start but if he keeps playing like he is now (around 13pts, 7asts per game) I'd expect him to be a mid first round draft pick.

[FooTara]

If we trade any of them we should get the same or HIGHER value.Could anyone that writes we should trade AMIR and not Bargnani or eve Ed please back their opinion with something...anything? So far I don't understand how is Bargnani better than Amir at the 4. Given Amir's defensive abilities he is a more complete player than Bargnani is(and after 5 years than he would ever be). Why exaclty should be trade Amir or even Barbosa before we trade Bargnani? Because Barbosa's contact is expiring?If that is the only reason to trade a guy please kill half the Gms of the league.Or we should trade Barbosa because last season he seemed like our best player on many nights(yes,very sad but true)?Also barbosa had struggle year but still was one of our best 3pt shooters..if we had any(again sadly but also true).Among all the players that make around 3-8 million per year in that position Amir is 2nd in FG%,10th in FT%,7th in Offensive rebounds,17th at total rebounds,18 at assists. Now jsut to make you better realize his contract the list of players with contracts in that range of 3-8m a year is around 45 names long. Would we really be offered a better player than Amir for that money?

[Papa Burgundy]

If we trade any of them we should get the same or HIGHER value.Could anyone that writes we should trade AMIR and not Bargnani or eve Ed please back their opinion with something...anything? So far I don't understand how is Bargnani better than Amir at the 4. Given Amir's defensive abilities he is a more complete player than Bargnani is(and after 5 years than he would ever be). Why exaclty should be trade Amir or even Barbosa before we trade Bargnani? Because Barbosa's contact is expiring?If that is the only reason to trade a guy please kill half the Gms of the league.Or we should trade Barbosa because last season he seemed like our best player on many nights(yes,very sad but true)?Also barbosa had struggle year but still was one of our best 3pt shooters..if we had any(again sadly but also true).Among all the players that make around 3-8 million per year in that position Amir is 2nd in FG%,10th in FT%,7th in Offensive rebounds,17th at total rebounds,18 at assists. Now jsut to make you better realize his contract the list of players with contracts in that range of 3-8m a year is around 45 names long. Would we really be offered a better player than Amir for that money?

I havent written that we should trade Amir, but I could weigh in on the bolded section here.

Bargnani is better at the 4 because he averaged over 20 points in the NBA last season, and can do even more ... and this team needs scoring! Yes, hopefully Demar can continue to rise - but even if he improves by another 4-6PPG we STILL need many more points on the scoreboard.
Jonas will be an amazing piece, but not necessarily a top 2 scoring option. Ed David has the potential to be a double-double guy, but not likely more than 15-17PPG anytime soon. James Johnson is showing promise to be a great complimentary player, but not a top dog on offense at all.

Anyway, back to how Bargnani could be considered better than Amir ...
I would argue that Amir is also not a great defender - he struggled many times last season, especially with his new focus on trying to stay off the bench with foul trouble. His game is based on 'bounce and athleticism', not basketball skill ... this makes him a great bench big while he's young and spry.
Bargnani, on the other hand, is a world class scorer - and has range and a jumpshot that maybe 2 or 3 other 7-footers in the league could rival ... he's still young, and needs a big rim protector to play alongside him. This is not unreasonably hard to provide. Next to Jonas, he could be a long great partner for the long term ... buuuut so could Ed Davis!

[FooTara]

I havent written that we should trade Amir, but I could weigh in on the bolded section here.

Bargnani is better at the 4 because he averaged over 20 points in the NBA last season, and can do even more ... and this team needs scoring! Yes, hopefully Demar can continue to rise - but even if he improves by another 4-6PPG we STILL need many more points on the scoreboard.
Jonas will be an amazing piece, but not necessarily a top 2 scoring option. Ed David has the potential to be a double-double guy, but not likely more than 15-17PPG anytime soon. James Johnson is showing promise to be a great complimentary player, but not a top dog on offense at all.

Anyway, back to how Bargnani could be considered better than Amir ...
I would argue that Amir is also not a great defender - he struggled many times last season, especially with his new focus on trying to stay off the bench with foul trouble. His game is based on 'bounce and athleticism', not basketball skill ... this makes him a great bench big while he's young and spry.
Bargnani, on the other hand, is a world class scorer - and has range and a jumpshot that maybe 2 or 3 other 7-footers in the league could rival ... he's still young, and needs a big rim protector to play alongside him. This is not unreasonably hard to provide. Next to Jonas, he could be a long great partner for the long term ... buuuut so could Ed Davis!

I agree with you - that team needs scoring...but it was my bad for bringing the Bargnani < Amir like that - because it has been discussed over and over in the Bargnani thread. But wouldn't Bayless and Derozan provide even better scoring with more touches? Their scoring percentages are actually better than Bargnanis. Dwayne Casey is a defensive coach - he should be working better with defensive minded players.And to stay on the topic I would like to ask what would we really get in a trade for Amir?His cottract seemed bad when he signed and up until the newest CBA seemebed better especially for the next few years as Amir constantly improves in all areas in his game(he is still very bad with staying in the game for foul trouble but he improved a lot in that area the last season - that indicated he could improve even more this season and under better defensive minded coach.He improved his jumper,his fould shots and even though he started at 4 on most games he actually guarded the better offensive bih of the other team,or when in zone defense he was at the center.I would really like to see him guarding 4s - and not 5s on most nights.If you remember the last game vs Clippers he actually played very good D on Blake Griffin - which was nice. But most of all we should appreciate his work etics,his hustle and his devotion to the team. If I recall correctly on the end of year press conference he stated he wants to be the leader of this team - so far he has shown that in words and action a lot more than Bargnani or anyone else on the team. Don't get me wrong - I am not saying he should be our leader but showing passion and desire for the team of Toronto is not something we see very often in our players.And also I believe we would get better players in exchange for Bargnani - that will also give you the chance to develop Ed Davis,continue to develop Amir and allow Jonas to blosson next year. That would also show Derozan,ed,Amir and Bayless(if we keep him) that the team wants to build around them.

[Papa Burgundy]

I would agree that Amir's value would be pretty low in trades ... always good to have big depth, but I guess he could raise his value over the length of this season - at least enough to be part of a Raptor package in a trade.

I can also see the scoring punch from Bayless and Demar ... but keeping in mind, Bargnani did his scoring while often being the focal point for opposing defensive schemes. No one was spending too much energy double teaming either of the other two.

[Tim W.]

Trading Amir before Bargnani sends a signal to the players and fans that they don't value hard working, defensive players and value enigmas over the real thing. I don't like that signal at all.

I don't care in the least that Davis and Amir are "similar" players. Amir has consistently worked hard, done what has been asked, and even played injured because the Raptors needed him to.

Besides, Dale Davis and Antonio Davis showed that having two similar players can actually help your team.

[SuperRaptor]

I hit back by mistake and wiped out the poll I was setting up.

The poll was essentially do you think the Raptors should:

1) trade Barbosa
2) trade Amir
3) trade both
4) keep both


Personally my thoughts are no one should be untouchable given we just came off a 22 win season. If either could return another first round pick (like 20-ish or lower) I'd send either packing without a second thought.

Trade both. I love them both, but barbosa can be a valuable trade piece, and we have too many PF's now. Bring in a C or SF.

[Tim W.]

Trade both. I love them both, but barbosa can be a valuable trade piece, and we have too many PF's now. Bring in a C or SF.

Weren't you the one who kept saying the if the Raptors improve their defense, then they can compete for a playoffs spot? And you'd rather keep the poor defending big man (Bargnani) and trade away the hustling, rebounding and defending one (Amir)?

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Trading Amir before Bargnani sends a signal to the players and fans that they don't value hard working, defensive players and value enigmas over the real thing. I don't like that signal at all.

I don't care in the least that Davis and Amir are "similar" players. Amir has consistently worked hard, done what has been asked, and even played injured because the Raptors needed him to.

Besides, Dale Davis and Antonio Davis showed that having two similar players can actually help your team.

I'm not going to get into the whole Bargnani VS Amir debate we've had several times in other threads, as we both know each other's position. However, I think you're making way too much of a generalization here. Trading Amir (or anybody else for that matter) doesn't send any sort of message about loyalty or qualities preferred by the franchise, any more than it says how highly the franchise thinks of them because to complete a trade you have to give up value to get value. In the NBA, salary matching is extremely important in trades, so it could very easily be that Amir is preferred in a trade over Bargnani, for example, because of the salary cap space the other team has available and/or the salary of the player(s) coming back to balance the deal.

Don't make Chisholm's idea about personality or character, it's a business move as much as anything else.


As for my take on Chisholm's article, I strongly support his recommendation to trade BOTH Barbosa and Amir, for the same reasons he listed.

[Tim W.]

I'm not going to get into the whole Bargnani VS Amir debate we've had several times in other threads, as we both know each other's position. However, I think you're making way too much of a generalization here. Trading Amir (or anybody else for that matter) doesn't send any sort of message about loyalty or qualities preferred by the franchise, any more than it says how highly the franchise thinks of them because to complete a trade you have to give up value to get value. In the NBA, salary matching is extremely important in trades, so it could very easily be that Amir is preferred in a trade over Bargnani, for example, because of the salary cap space the other team has available and/or the salary of the player(s) coming back to balance the deal.

Don't make Chisholm's idea about personality or character, it's a business move as much as anything else.

It's not the trading of Amir I have the problem with. It's the trading Amir AND keeping Bargnani. That does send a message. And, yes, you have to give up quality to get quality, but you also want to keep as much quality you have and rid your team of the pieces that simply don't help. If this team is trying to create a new identity and focus more on defense, then Bargnani has to be one of the first to go. Otherwise it's just lip service.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

It's not the trading of Amir I have the problem with. It's the trading Amir AND keeping Bargnani. That does send a message. And, yes, you have to give up quality to get quality, but you also want to keep as much quality you have and rid your team of the pieces that simply don't help. If this team is trying to create a new identity and focus more on defense, then Bargnani has to be one of the first to go. Otherwise it's just lip service.

I still disagree with the notion that trading a specific player sends a message, especially when each player has a specific set of unique skillsets that definitely differ from one another in the case of Bargnani/Amir. Bargnani is a finesse scorer that needs to improve defense & rebounding, whereas Amir is a banger who also needs to improve his offense and defense, in order for either one of them to be considered legit starting PF in this league.

The only person who that decision to trade one player while keeping another sends a message to is you, who has clearly let his opinions be known. First, each personnel decision is mutually exclusive and every trade/signing should be evaluated on its own, not in comparison to something that might have or could have or should have happned (especially when you don't truly know the variables of those other possible decisions). Second, you have your preference of Amir over Bargnani, but it's not a universal opinion, no matter how often you assert your opinion as a 100%, black & white, night & day, fact. It's still just your opinion.

The truth is, there are many people just on this forum that think Amir will never amount to more than an overpaid backup who is a redundant, older, overpriced version of Ed Davis, who will never amount to anything nearly as good as what Bargnani is, let alone could develop into under Casey. I could be wrong and I welcome differing opionions, but that is still how I feel right now and I am still in support of trading Barbosa and Amir as Raptor trade chips #1a and #1b.

[Tim W.]

I still disagree with the notion that trading a specific player sends a message, especially when each player has a specific set of unique skillsets that definitely differ from one another in the case of Bargnani/Amir. Bargnani is a finesse scorer that needs to improve defense & rebounding, whereas Amir is a banger who also needs to improve his offense and defense, in order for either one of them to be considered legit starting PF in this league.

The only person who that decision to trade one player while keeping another sends a message to is you, who has clearly let his opinions be known. First, each personnel decision is mutually exclusive and every trade/signing should be evaluated on its own, not in comparison to something that might have or could have or should have happned (especially when you don't truly know the variables of those other possible decisions). Second, you have your preference of Amir over Bargnani, but it's not a universal opinion, no matter how often you assert your opinion as a 100%, black & white, night & day, fact. It's still just your opinion.

The truth is, there are many people just on this forum that think Amir will never amount to more than an overpaid backup who is a redundant, older, overpriced version of Ed Davis, who will never amount to anything nearly as good as what Bargnani is, let alone could develop into under Casey. I could be wrong and I welcome differing opionions, but that is still how I feel right now and I am still in support of trading Barbosa and Amir as Raptor trade chips #1a and #1b.

I don't see how it doesn't send a message. While both have parts of their game they need to work on, only one is literally a big liability when he's on one end of the floor. So much so that, overall, the Raptors are actually a worse team when he's on the floor.

And this isn't opinion. This is going on stats...
http://www.82games.com/1011/1011TOR.HTM

Amir needs to work on his offense and defense, but at least he helps the team and works hard the entire time he's on the court. At least he hustles when he's out there. By keeping Amir and trading Bargnani, it says to fans and players that you value what Amir brings and don't accept not working hard and not playing defense.

This is especially true since, according to many, Bargnani would actually fetch more in a trade than Amir.

[LBF]

That's kinda like saying if the Raptors gets a couple of sweet free agents, they could contend in the east.

Because you know that there are a ton of dudes breaking down the door to play in Indianapolis.

they have a GOOD young point guard and center as well a good upcoming wing. I think once they move Granger they will be better.

Hibbert
PF
George
SG
Collison


it's time for them to part ways with granger and get some goodies in return.

[WJF]

Trading Amir is/would be next to impossible because hes basically getting starter money and most teams have their starting PF or have eyes on one in this draft/free agency. Unfortunately, if/when you trade Amir you're going to end up getting back 30 cents on the dollar cause it's going to be a salary dump.

Better to trade Bargs or Ed and have Amir be the first big off the bench.

Do you know how much he is making? 5.5 mil this year, going up by .5 till he caps at 7 mil, not exactly a huge amount. He would be one of the lowest paid starters on any team he goes to, and is more productive than many players making far more than him, I think he has decent trade value and moving him would be a welcome transaction to me.