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  • #31
    Pizzaman wrote: View Post
    sorry meant +1 to ceez comment on not dealing Bosh. We all knew he was going. Look what Denver did getting rid of Melo and actually getting more pieces that add up to a better team
    Proclaim your love for the city, tell the people "you're not going anywhere" then dump the team. From this day forward, shall be known as the "Chris Bosh" move.

    I think because of what Bosh did to the Raptors, GMs became more aware, not to believe players when they say theyre willing to stay, but want to test the FA market as well.

    Staying on topic, I think the worst move in 5 years was letting Garbo walk.

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    • #32
      RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
      At the trade deadline we were the 4th (5th?) team in the East. If they traded Bosh people would have been outraged. BC can't tell the future and be able to know that Bosh would get hurt and the wheels would fall off.
      I politely disagree. I think it was very obvious that Bosh had absolutely zero intention of re-signing with the Raptors. I was one of the few people on RR pushing for a trade the summer before his last season, in order to get the rebuild started a year earlier - which ironically would have avoided the acquisition of Turkoglu and Jack, which were done to appease Bosh.

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      • #33
        Colangelo isn't a dumb guy. He spent every day with the team and so there must have been things expressed that made him feel Bosh was leaning towards staying. You can't assume that everything you read on a sports site is true or complete.

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        • #34
          Apollo wrote: View Post
          Colangelo isn't a dumb guy. He spent every day with the team and so there must have been things expressed that made him feel Bosh was leaning towards staying. You can't assume that everything you read on a sports site is true or complete.
          Fair enough. For me, it was just more of a gut feeling, reading between the lines of what was said (and what wasn't said) publically. BC was apparently offering a max contract even during Bosh's second last season and that offseason, which was more than any other team could offer. The fact that Bosh didn't sign an extension immediately, would have been enough to send up red flags and sound the warning bells! It was for me as a fan.

          Plus, that isn't even getting into the question of whether Bosh was even truly worthy of a max contract - the offseason I joined RR, prior to Bosh's last season, I was one of a few people saying he wasn't and should therefore be used as trade bait to better the team long-term. The one benefit of trading him that offseason was that even if he didn't choose to re-sign with the team the Raps traded him to, they still could have used him in a S&T of their own the following offseason. That was why I think (and thought at the time) that the Raps could have gotten more for him that offseason, since more teams likely would have been interested, resulting in a bidding war.

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          • #35
            I feel like BC completely wrote off the Bosh area by trying to win too soon. Ford, Bosh and Bargnani wasn't enough talent to push for the play-offs... so the Garbo, Parker and Rasho acquisitions are my nominations. Those guy's made us good enough that we were cut off from being able to add another impact talent. If he'd have spent the first year strengthening our foundation instead of immediately piling on top of it, I think we could have gone further.

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            • #36
              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
              Fair enough. For me, it was just more of a gut feeling, reading between the lines of what was said (and what wasn't said) publically. BC was apparently offering a max contract even during Bosh's second last season and that offseason, which was more than any other team could offer. The fact that Bosh didn't sign an extension immediately, would have been enough to send up red flags and sound the warning bells! It was for me as a fan.

              Plus, that isn't even getting into the question of whether Bosh was even truly worthy of a max contract - the offseason I joined RR, prior to Bosh's last season, I was one of a few people saying he wasn't and should therefore be used as trade bait to better the team long-term. The one benefit of trading him that offseason was that even if he didn't choose to re-sign with the team the Raps traded him to, they still could have used him in a S&T of their own the following offseason. That was why I think (and thought at the time) that the Raps could have gotten more for him that offseason, since more teams likely would have been interested, resulting in a bidding war.
              Good lord, is the hate for BC so strong that even the 20/20 hindsight can be so misguided? Just my opinion, okay:

              What do you really think they could have received in a trade under the following circumstances:
              - every GM was quite aware of the big free agent summer coming up and that some attractive teams/locals were positioning themselves with cap space to be players: Miami, Chicago, NY, etc.
              - none of the other big names were re-upping either: Wade, LeBron, Amare, Boozer, etc.. For good reason on the surface even: they could wait and test the market, and if a more attractive situation was available, there was still a very good chance that they could get the max deal through a S&T. Worst case scenario for them was they were still going to get a very nice deal from somebody, almost certainly with multiple choices available. Why not see what other teams looked like then and what they were offering?
              - the current Miami trio almost certainly already had the plan in place and neither them or Miami was going to show their hand, thus Bosh was not going to agree to an extension with anybody, tying BC up to only choices being what someone was willing to give up for a 1 year or less rental.

              What teams do you think were willing to give up anything of value for Bosh without him agreeing to an extension? BC's hands were tied on this issue. Bosh was not about to show his real hand, and was leading BC on with saying the door was still open on re-signing. BC had two choices: try his best to put pieces around Bosh (Hedo, previous year Magic MVP in the Finals) and show his commitment to trying to build a winner with him: if unsuccessful, the rebuild begins. Other option was to unload him for a collection of mediocre talent at best, hampering a rebuild.

              Comment


              • #37
                p00ka wrote: View Post
                Good lord, is the hate for BC so strong that even the 20/20 hindsight can be so misguided? Just my opinion, okay:

                What do you really think they could have received in a trade under the following circumstances:
                - every GM was quite aware of the big free agent summer coming up and that some attractive teams/locals were positioning themselves with cap space to be players: Miami, Chicago, NY, etc.
                - none of the other big names were re-upping either: Wade, LeBron, Amare, Boozer, etc.. For good reason on the surface even: they could wait and test the market, and if a more attractive situation was available, there was still a very good chance that they could get the max deal through a S&T. Worst case scenario for them was they were still going to get a very nice deal from somebody, almost certainly with multiple choices available. Why not see what other teams looked like then and what they were offering?
                - the current Miami trio almost certainly already had the plan in place and neither them or Miami was going to show their hand, thus Bosh was not going to agree to an extension with anybody, tying BC up to only choices being what someone was willing to give up for a 1 year or less rental.

                What teams do you think were willing to give up anything of value for Bosh without him agreeing to an extension? BC's hands were tied on this issue. Bosh was not about to show his real hand, and was leading BC on with saying the door was still open on re-signing. BC had two choices: try his best to put pieces around Bosh (Hedo, previous year Magic MVP in the Finals) and show his commitment to trying to build a winner with him: if unsuccessful, the rebuild begins. Other option was to unload him for a collection of mediocre talent at best, hampering a rebuild.
                I'm actually a strong BC supporter. My post wasn't meant to be hateful, it was just in response to Apollo's point. I feel all his moves were made with the best of intentions and just didn't pan out. Plus, he made some seriously underrated moves that have panned out well beyond expectations (ie: Delfino for 2 2nd-round picks, then Delfino & Ukic for Amir & Weems). I like BC because he doesn't rest on his laurels, isn't afraid to admit a mistake and take action to correct it and like him finally doing a true rebuild/build.

                I prefaced it saying my feeling was just a gut feeling, without knowing any offers that were actually proposed the offseason before Bosh's final season, during his final season or the offseason after his final season. They were my feelings back then though, this isn't 20-20 hindsight. I joined RR that offseason to join the discussion about whether to keep Bosh for his final season or trade him before/during/after it! Even before his final season, I thought he was overrated and not worth a max contract, and also figured he would be gone after that last season regardless of what was being said by the organization/media. It was just an opinion that could have gone either way, but I happened to assume correctly.

                You are incorrect about one thing though - BC didn't just have 2 options, he had a third option. That option was to trade Bosh before his final season (not sign Turkoglu or Jack), get building piecies in that trade and start a true rebuild a season earlier. And this 3rd option isn't just an option in hind-sight, there were people on here like me and some media people who were pushing for this option back in the summer of 2009. There were plenty of other rumor ciruculating back then, involving several more teams than those that were apparently in the mix the following summer.
                Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Jan 24th, 2012, 01:07 PM.

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                • #38
                  CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                  I'm actually a strong BC supporter. My post wasn't meant to be hateful, it was just in response to Apollo's point. I feel all his moves were made with the best of intentions and just didn't pan out. Plus, he made some seriously underrated moves that have panned out well beyond expectations (ie: Delfino for 2 2nd-round picks, then Delfino & Ukic for Amir & Weems). I like BC because he doesn't rest on his laurels, isn't afraid to admit a mistake and take action to correct it and like him finally doing a true rebuild/build.

                  I prefaced it saying my feeling was just a gut feeling, without knowing any offers that were actually proposed the offseason before Bosh's final season, during his final season or the offseason after his final season. They were my feelings back then though, this isn't 20-20 hindsight. I joined RR that offseason to join the discussion about whether to keep Bosh for his final season or trade him before/during/after it! Even before his final season, I thought he was overrated and not worth a max contract, and also figured he would be gone after that last season regardless of what was being said by the organization/media. It was just an opinion that could have gone either way, but I happened to assume correctly.

                  You are incorrect about one thing though - BC didn't just have 2 options, he had a third option. That option was to trade Bosh before his final season (not sign Turkoglu or Jack), get building piecies in that trade and start a true rebuild a season earlier. And this 3rd option isn't just an option in hind-sight, there were people on here like me and some media people who were pushing for this option back in the summer of 2009. There were plenty of other rumor ciruculating back then, involving several more teams than those that were apparently in the mix the following summer.
                  It is hard to know what pieces would have come back without an extension. In that case would the Raptors have been better off? Would guys like Scola, for example, help build a contender in the future or would they ensure a stay on the mediocre treadmill? (personal preference but mediocrity is worse than what the Raptors are currently going through, in my opinion).

                  The CP3 drama was a classic example of a team (clippers) not including their best assets without some assurance. In this case it was picking up his player option for 12-13. The Clippers would not include both Gordon AND the Minny pick without it.

                  Back to Bosh, I am sure a trade was out there for him but I doubt a team was make their best or even a fair offer without an assurance. If they were, then in that case, damn you BC! But I don't think so.

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                  • #39
                    Some good comments on here:

                    - trading Bosh when we were in a good position to go for top 4 play-off spot in the East would have been met with disgust (and rightly so) by the fanbase and media.
                    - can you imagine how long the 'Everything Charlie V' thread would have been by now if we had not traded him and offered him that contract instead? I'm guessing he might have been more of a scapegoat than Bargnani.

                    I'm totally in favor (or was it favour in Canada) of Colangelo because there is one thing you can be sure of. He will not sit still and allows us to be a mediocre team. He will change his plan if he sees necessary and he will make moves (gambles) to try to get us a competitive advantage; many of the trades are not different in this respect from drafting Valanciunas. The only thing I don't like about him is that he seems to need recognition from his peers; always when I hear or read about draftpicks or trades (truth be told: I don't see or read quite as much as most of you guys over in Canada) he makes lots of comments about being called and congratulated by many guys around the league. However, in that regard he isn't much different from those of us who always complain about lack of respect by ESPN (Americans). I say, who cares, just go about your business and if you are doing a good job the results the Raptors will have should be satisfying enough.
                    Last edited by Soft Euro; Tue Jan 24th, 2012, 01:49 PM.

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                    • #40
                      Matt52 wrote: View Post
                      It is hard to know what pieces would have come back without an extension. In that case would the Raptors have been better off? Would guys like Scola, for example, help build a contender in the future or would they ensure a stay on the mediocre treadmill? (personal preference but mediocrity is worse than what the Raptors are currently going through, in my opinion).

                      The CP3 drama was a classic example of a team (clippers) not including their best assets without some assurance. In this case it was picking up his player option for 12-13. The Clippers would not include both Gordon AND the Minny pick without it.

                      Back to Bosh, I am sure a trade was out there for him but I doubt a team was make their best or even a fair offer without an assurance. If they were, then in that case, damn you BC! But I don't think so.
                      Oh absolutely agreed. To play devil's advocate though, I wonder if the assets acquired in a Bosh trade in the summer of 2009 could have been used in future trades, if not part of the long-term plans for the Raps. We'll never know, but was fun to speculate back then and interesting to reflect on how the past couple seasons have played out as they have. I just have to think that something more could have been had for Bosh, than what the Raps ended up getting.

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                      • #41
                        There's only one move I wish someone would have slapped Bryan upside the head and told him to wake up (that's Stefanski's job now I hope), and that's the Jermaine O'Neal deal. And I don't mean that we should have gotten Hibbert. That was the Pacers' choice. I just didn't understand the move. Still don't. Nothing else was that bad. For example, Turkoglu. It's not like we gave up any assets for him. At the all-star break that year we were fifth in the east (then the wheels fell off). And BC got rid of him pretty quickly. He's got a clean slate now (BC that is). Let's see what he does with his second chance.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                          I'm actually a strong BC supporter. My post wasn't meant to be hateful, it was just in response to Apollo's point. I feel all his moves were made with the best of intentions and just didn't pan out. Plus, he made some seriously underrated moves that have panned out well beyond expectations (ie: Delfino for 2 2nd-round picks, then Delfino & Ukic for Amir & Weems). I like BC because he doesn't rest on his laurels, isn't afraid to admit a mistake and take action to correct it and like him finally doing a true rebuild/build.

                          I prefaced it saying my feeling was just a gut feeling, without knowing any offers that were actually proposed the offseason before Bosh's final season, during his final season or the offseason after his final season. They were my feelings back then though, this isn't 20-20 hindsight. I joined RR that offseason to join the discussion about whether to keep Bosh for his final season or trade him before/during/after it! Even before his final season, I thought he was overrated and not worth a max contract, and also figured he would be gone after that last season regardless of what was being said by the organization/media. It was just an opinion that could have gone either way, but I happened to assume correctly.

                          You are incorrect about one thing though - BC didn't just have 2 options, he had a third option. That option was to trade Bosh before his final season (not sign Turkoglu or Jack), get building piecies in that trade and start a true rebuild a season earlier. And this 3rd option isn't just an option in hind-sight, there were people on here like me and some media people who were pushing for this option back in the summer of 2009. There were plenty of other rumor ciruculating back then, involving several more teams than those that were apparently in the mix the following summer.
                          My apologies for implying you are a BC hater. I see so much crap in that regard on this site, that it blinded me from recognizing that you are generally a reasonable and insightful poster.

                          Lets face it, BC is not a guy who sits on his hands, and I think it's safe to say that he had enough feelers out to know what was available in a trade. I maintain that, as a result of the whole situation at the time, which I described, he felt there was nothing of value to be had, and that his two choices were those I mentioned. That was a very tough situation that is hard to judge him on. I believe he worked hard to do his best, few if any could have done better, and there's not much room to second guess him on.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            p00ka wrote: View Post
                            My apologies for implying you are a BC hater. I see so much crap in that regard on this site, that it blinded me from recognizing that you are generally a reasonable and insightful poster.

                            Lets face it, BC is not a guy who sits on his hands, and I think it's safe to say that he had enough feelers out to know what was available in a trade. I maintain that, as a result of the whole situation at the time, which I described, he felt there was nothing of value to be had, and that his two choices were those I mentioned. That was a very tough situation that is hard to judge him on. I believe he worked hard to do his best, few if any could have done better, and there's not much room to second guess him on.
                            If only BC would provide RR with all potential deals to review and discuss... oh to be a fly on an NBA GM's wall!

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                            • #44
                              CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                              If only BC would provide RR with all potential deals to review and discuss... oh to be a fly on an NBA GM's wall!
                              lol, I'd pay good money to experience some meaty days of being that fly!! He'd probably have to kill me after though, haha

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