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Is it time to give Barbosa a chance to start?

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  • Is it time to give Barbosa a chance to start?

    The Raptors starting line is not producing on the offensive end, I think they need a fresh line up to get a kickstart. Is it time to give Leandro a shot in the starting line up? He has been producing off the bench and has earned a chance to show what he can do.

    I realize that this move comes at the expense of starting DeMar, but maybe we could start him at SF and roll out a small line-up against the Suns. Another alternative is having DeMar coming off the bench in a sixth man role for both the 2 and 3 positions. Give him a chance to find his game against the second units. I think DeMar will eventually find his game and become the starting SG again.

    Another benefit of this move is to showcase Barbosa. I doubt he will be with the Raptors next year, so moving him at the trade deadline is in the Raptors best interest. Perhaps starting him might yield us another first rounder in this years draft.

  • #2
    saints91 wrote: View Post
    The Raptors starting line is not producing on the offensive end, I think they need a fresh line up to get a kickstart. Is it time to give Leandro a shot in the starting line up? He has been producing off the bench and has earned a chance to show what he can do.

    I realize that this move comes at the expense of starting DeMar, but maybe we could start him at SF and roll out a small line-up against the Suns. Another alternative is having DeMar coming off the bench in a sixth man role for both the 2 and 3 positions. Give him a chance to find his game against the second units. I think DeMar will eventually find his game and become the starting SG again.

    Another benefit of this move is to showcase Barbosa. I doubt he will be with the Raptors next year, so moving him at the trade deadline is in the Raptors best interest. Perhaps starting him might yield us another first rounder in this years draft.
    I agree with you, for the following reasons:
    1. DeRozan was supposed to be the cutting/driving option to balance Bargnani on the starting unit, but isn't doing either
    2. Barbosa could fulfill the role that DeRozan was supposed to, while also driving up his trade value
    3. DeRozan could get his game going on the second unit, to help get his confidence back
    4. Barbosa & Bayless on the same unit is redundant, so hopefully splitting them up will also allow Bayless to find his game
    5. DeRozan would likely still wind up getting "starters" minutes, so it's not as though his overall individual development would suffer from a lack of playing time

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    • #3
      I think its time.

      It will only boost Barbosa's value and we might win some more games. Plus, we'll see if DeRozan can handle the shot to the ego. We'll see what he's made of, maybe it will light a fire and kick-start his season.

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      • #4
        I really do think DeMar is the better player, but something is just off. We have played 16 games and the way things are going he isn't shaking it, maybe it's time to try something else to help him out. I'm sure he will take it as an insult, but it's not meant that way. Communication between him and Dwane would be needed, so would he understand that he isn't being punished or demoted.
        Last edited by saints91; Tue Jan 24th, 2012, 02:16 PM.

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        • #5
          I don't think they need to start him. His value to other teams is him producing off the bench in the 6th man role and he's doing that superbly this season. Maybe they need to give him more minutes at times if they do in fact want to deal him. He strikes me as the perfect fit for a team like the Hawks:

          Marvin Williams for Barbosa and James Johnson

          As I scan the league I don't see too many opportunities beyond this without involving a 3rd party. I don't have time to crunch the numbers on those sorts of trades but I know we have lots of great minds around here who might toss out some ideas in a Barbosa trade ideas thread.

          EDIT: In my opinion the bottom line is that if he's not in the long term plans he shouldn't be getting extended minutes unless they're shopping him. If they're not shopping him then he's gone at the end of the season, so what's the point?

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          • #6
            Apollo wrote: View Post
            I don't think they need to start him. His value to other teams is him producing off the bench in the 6th man role and he's doing that superbly this season. Maybe they need to give him more minutes at times if they do in fact want to deal him. He strikes me as the perfect fit for a team like the Hawks:

            Marvin Williams for Barbosa and James Johnson

            As I scan the league I don't see too many opportunities beyond this without involving a 3rd party. I don't have time to crunch the numbers on those sorts of trades but I know we have lots of great minds around here who might toss out some ideas in a Barbosa trade ideas thread.
            I would seriously consider this trade. The only hesitation would be if we overlook guys like MKG, Miller, Jones, etc. because Colangelo assumes we've got the SF spot filled with Williams.

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            • #7
              Not trying to be a jackass, but what would Marvin Williams give Toronto that James Johnson doesn't already give them?

              He's not an efficient scorer.
              He's not an elite defender.
              He doesn't bring any "intangibles".
              He's not young in the league (ie. he's not going to turn into something he hasn't been for the past 7 years)
              His career numbers are hardly eye-popping, at right around 10 and 5 per game.
              He's locked in at $8M/year for the next 3 years.

              I think that, as much as people tend to undervalue their own players, they also overvalue those they don't see play 3 times a week. Marvin Williams was Demar 4 years ago: people kept talking about his plethora of tools, but wondered why he never seemed to put it all together. They no longer talk about him that way anymore; he is what he is to Hawks fans now.

              I would not trade anyone on the Raptors current roster for 3 years of Marvin Williams coming off the bench at SF for $8M, and especially not JJ, who for all his lack of an offensive game still brings a lot to the table in terms of energy and defense. Williams brings nothing that we don't already have.
              Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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              • #8
                Apollo wrote: View Post
                I don't think they need to start him. His value to other teams is him producing off the bench in the 6th man role and he's doing that superbly this season. Maybe they need to give him more minutes at times if they do in fact want to deal him. He strikes me as the perfect fit for a team like the Hawks:

                Marvin Williams for Barbosa and James Johnson

                As I scan the league I don't see too many opportunities beyond this without involving a 3rd party. I don't have time to crunch the numbers on those sorts of trades but I know we have lots of great minds around here who might toss out some ideas in a Barbosa trade ideas thread.

                EDIT: In my opinion the bottom line is that if he's not in the long term plans he shouldn't be getting extended minutes unless they're shopping him. If they're not shopping him then he's gone at the end of the season, so what's the point?
                The only way I take this trade is if ATL gives a first round pick as well and James Johnson is not included. Looking at Atlanta's roster, they have Joe Johnson to slide to SF, Hinrich to play the 2, and Teague starting then with Tracy McGrady, Willie Green, Radmanovic, and, if trade happened, Barbosa.

                If the trade happened, I am immediately trying to package Marvin Williams, Ed Davis, ATL pick and a future first round pick for Rudy Gay on draft night.

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                • #9
                  I didn't really want to turn this into a trade thread. I mostly was looking for ways to get DeMar on track, and reward Barbosa.

                  There are a few potential playoff teams that good use that extra punch off the bench. Ex. Lakers, Spurs, and Minnesota
                  Last edited by saints91; Tue Jan 24th, 2012, 04:35 PM.

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                  • #10
                    You're not a jackass

                    jimmie wrote: View Post
                    Not trying to be a jackass, but what would Marvin Williams give Toronto that James Johnson doesn't already give them?

                    He's not an efficient scorer.
                    He's not an elite defender.
                    He doesn't bring any "intangibles".
                    He's not young in the league (ie. he's not going to turn into something he hasn't been for the past 7 years)
                    His career numbers are hardly eye-popping, at right around 10 and 5 per game.
                    He's locked in at $8M/year for the next 3 years.

                    I think that, as much as people tend to undervalue their own players, they also overvalue those they don't see play 3 times a week. Marvin Williams was Demar 4 years ago: people kept talking about his plethora of tools, but wondered why he never seemed to put it all together. They no longer talk about him that way anymore; he is what he is to Hawks fans now.

                    I would not trade anyone on the Raptors current roster for 3 years of Marvin Williams coming off the bench at SF for $8M, and especially not JJ, who for all his lack of an offensive game still brings a lot to the table in terms of energy and defense. Williams brings nothing that we don't already have.
                    I don't think you're being a jackass but I do think you're wrong. He's a lot better than James Johnson. To counter your points:
                    • He's a better scorer and he has the ball handling skills to play some point forward, something Colangelo values highly.
                    • A good defender and a much more consistent defender than JJ.
                    • "Intangibles"? Why don't you show me some quantitative comparisons to prove your point on this one.
                    • He's only 25 so what do you consider "young" these days? Is age 24(JJ's age) the cut off?
                    • Stats don't tell the whole story. He's a role player, a team player and sacrifices "his" for the team. He has a good basketball IQ.
                    • Given his abilities his contract isn't outrageous.


                    Marvin Williams is overshadowed by Josh Smith and Joe Johnson. He can do a lot more but isn't asked to do so. James Johnson visibly is one of the most offensively limited wings in the NBA. There is no comparison to Marvin Williams, sorry.

                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    The only way I take this trade is if ATL gives a first round pick as well and James Johnson is not included.
                    That would work for me. They get to keep a bench player and add a 1st rounder. By the way, the reason I targeted ATL is because of how well Jamal Crawford played in the system.

                    saints91 wrote: View Post
                    I didn't really want to turn this into a trade thread. I mostly was looking for ways to get DeMar on track, and reward Barbosa.

                    There are a few potential playoff teams that good use that extra punch off the bench. Ex. Lakers, Spurs, and Minnesota
                    You'll need a 3rd party involved to make it happen. Atlanta dealing Marvin Williams was the only real clean trade I could think of that made some sense for both sides.

                    Nilanka wrote: View Post
                    I would seriously consider this trade. The only hesitation would be if we overlook guys like MKG, Miller, Jones, etc. because Colangelo assumes we've got the SF spot filled with Williams.
                    The good thing about Marvin Williams is that he adds flexibility to the lineup. He can come off the bench and play three different positions depending on the match up. Having him in town would allow for one of the three core bigs to be moved to upgrade the wing or PG spot(which ever isn't addressed in the draft).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Apollo wrote: View Post
                      I don't think they need to start him. His value to other teams is him producing off the bench in the 6th man role and he's doing that superbly this season. Maybe they need to give him more minutes at times if they do in fact want to deal him. He strikes me as the perfect fit for a team like the Hawks:

                      Marvin Williams for Barbosa and James Johnson

                      As I scan the league I don't see too many opportunities beyond this without involving a 3rd party. I don't have time to crunch the numbers on those sorts of trades but I know we have lots of great minds around here who might toss out some ideas in a Barbosa trade ideas thread.

                      EDIT: In my opinion the bottom line is that if he's not in the long term plans he shouldn't be getting extended minutes unless they're shopping him. If they're not shopping him then he's gone at the end of the season, so what's the point?
                      I would much rather have James Johnson and Barbosa than Marvin Williams.
                      "Defense wins championships."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Marvin Williams is overshadowed by Josh Smith and Joe Johnson. He can do a lot more but isn't asked to do so. James Johnson visibly is one of the most offensively limited wings in the NBA. There is no comparison to Marvin Williams, sorry.
                        He's not overshadowed. Those guys are just a lot better players. He's had his opportunity for the last 6+ years and hasn't ever been able to break through the "potential" wall.

                        I would never say James Johnson is a better player than Marvin Williams (although a few repeated performances like last night would make me reconsider). But he's not much less of a player, and certainly not worse enough to warrant taking on Williams' contract for the next 3 years, giving up cap flex from Barbosa's contract, and giving up JJ, who does enough for a very good price to warrant keeping him around, IMO.

                        My thoughts are that you take as much flexibility into the summer as possible, and not try to start adding role players until you have a true core of starters. I don't see Marvin Williams as a 30-year-old starting SF on this team in 2013-14 when they should really be starting to compete for something. And if he's not that, then he's not worth what it would take to get him here and pay him for the next 3 years.

                        If you trade anyone this year, it should be for cap flex, draft picks, or young (20-23yo) players with significant promise.
                        Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures.

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