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Wilson Chandler to Toronto? Forget about it (473)

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  • They'd also have a glut of swingmen. Maybe we get Corey Brewer at the end of everything?
    @sweatpantsjer

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    • Matt52 wrote: View Post
      Turk was a starter? What does that have to do with anything? You said players were only assets if they were on bargain contracts. Clearly Turk was not a bargain contract yet he was an asset that was able to be flipped for Barbosa - and Turk had 4 years and over $40M left on his contract!
      Sorry Matt, not to be picky, but this is what I (and not ebrian) said. You only picked up on about a 1/3rd of what I was trying to convey:

      Chandler (or any player for that matter) is only an "asset" if he's on a bargain contract, relative to how he's playing and/or the year of the contract. Otherwise, he becomes a burden instead of an asset (see Turk, Jose, etc...). In the new CBA, bargain contracts are even more valuable, with less room for mistakes like overpaying middle tier free agents (BC's historical weakness).
      Moving on.... In theory, every contract is an "asset", but some are more valuable than others. Even Kwame Brown's expiring contract can be traded for Pau Gasol, but you can't always plan on miracle fixes like that when you acquire the overpaid player in the first place. At this stage, I think the Raps are still trying to figure out exactly WHO the core is, or if they even have a core. Bargnani seems to be emerging, but that's still early to tell. Derozen and Davis may have stalled or regressed. Jonas isn't even here. Bayless isn't panning out. Seems to me like we need to wait another year before adding complimentary pieces like Chandler via free agency. I am against anything that impacts our salary cap & financial flexibility moving forward, until we really know what we've got. BC has a history of bad free agent signings. I'd rather tank another year to get a shot at a top 5 pick who will be on a rookie contract for longer. Trading Bargs is also not out of the question.

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      • golden wrote: View Post
        Sorry Matt, not to be picky, but this is what I (and not ebrian) said. You only picked up on about a 1/3rd of what I was trying to convey:


        Moving on.... In theory, every contract is an "asset", but some are more valuable than others. Even Kwame Brown's expiring contract can be traded for Pau Gasol, but you can't always plan on miracle fixes like that when you acquire the overpaid player in the first place. At this stage, I think the Raps are still trying to figure out exactly WHO the core is, or if they even have a core. Bargnani seems to be emerging, but that's still early to tell. Derozen and Davis may have stalled or regressed. Jonas isn't even here. Bayless isn't panning out. Seems to me like we need to wait another year before adding complimentary pieces like Chandler via free agency. I am against anything that impacts our salary cap & financial flexibility moving forward, until we really know what we've got. BC has a history of bad free agent signings. I'd rather tank another year to get a shot at a top 5 pick who will be on a rookie contract for longer. Trading Bargs is also not out of the question.
        Yes, ebrian alerted me to my mistake.

        So back to your point about players only being an 'asset' if he's on a bargain contract, I disagree. Those were your exact words and I gave examples of a very bad contract that turned out to become an asset because it landed Barbosa.

        I totally agree that the Raptors are still trying to figure out WHO is part of the core. So when you add an NBA-proven talent on a reasonable contract (in no way am I advocating grossly overpaying for Chandler) you immediately have a definite piece of your core moving forward. In this case it just so happens to be a 24 year old who has shown improvement every year in the NBA offensively and defensively is a top talent capable of guarding 2, 3, and 4. So when the Raptors have an asset like that, suddenly the Raptors are no longer placing all their chips on the development of DeMar DeRozan nor are they placing all their chips on the lottery gods answering their prayers and then hoping the development gods answer the same prayer. Signing Chandler gives them options they otherwise would not have. A player on a decent contract relative to his performance is not a burden in the NBA. I assume the idea of building through the draft comes from the OKC model of development. However, OKC (and Sam Presti) also made a few good trades along the way in addition to drafting Durant and Westbrook.

        The very examples of the players named not panning out at this moment for the Raptors is exactly the reason why the Raptors should pursue a bonafide NBA starter if given the opportunity.

        In my opinion the idea of tanking another year in hopes of a shot at another top 5 pick who will be on a rookie contract longer is equivalent to the man who cut off his nose to spite his face or the driver spinning his tires stuck in the snow. I guess you did not see the Washington game last night to see one of the possible outcomes of that strategy.
        Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat Feb 4, 2012, 04:26 PM.

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        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
          Yes, ebrian alerted me to my mistake.

          So back to your point about players only being an 'asset' if he's on a bargain contract, I disagree. Those were your exact words and I gave examples of a very bad contract that turned out to become an asset because it landed Barbosa.

          I totally agree that the Raptors are still trying to figure out WHO is part of the core. So when you add an NBA-proven talent on a reasonable contract (in no way am I advocating grossly overpaying for Chandler) you immediately have a definite piece of your core moving forward. In this case it just so happens to be a 24 year old who has shown improvement every year in the NBA offensively and defensively is a top talent capable of guarding 2, 3, and 4. So when the Raptors have an asset like that, suddenly the Raptors are no longer placing all their chips on the development of DeMar DeRozan nor are they placing all their chips on the lottery gods answering their prayers and then hoping the development gods answer the same prayer. Signing Chandler gives them options they otherwise would not have. A player on a decent contract relative to his performance is not a burden in the NBA. I assume the idea of building through the draft comes from the OKC model of development. However, OKC (and Sam Presti) also made a few good trades along the way in addition to drafting Durant and Westbrook.

          The very examples of the players named not panning out at this moment for the Raptors is exactly the reason why the Raptors should pursue a bonafide NBA starter if given the opportunity.

          In my opinion the idea of tanking another year in hopes of a shot at another top 5 pick who will be on a rookie contract longer is equivalent to the man who cut off his nose to spite his face or the driver spinning his tires stuck in the snow. I guess you did not see the Washington game last night to see one of the possible outcomes of that strategy.
          Well, you only chose to quote half of my sentence, but anyways, that's not the main point and no need to quibble about it. The main point is that that drafts and trades are much better ways to either build your core or build your assets. Far better than going after free agents. I have absolutely nothing against trades, but I am against free agency (especially if BC is dishing out the contract). Not sure why you used OKC as an example, because I don't recall them going after free agents. They did draft an asset (Jeff Green) who became valuable enough (but still on a cost-effective contract) to flip for a proven center (Perkins) who filled a specific need for them (front court playoff toughness), complementing the existing core. Raps need to continue to stockpile picks and cost-effective talent which can either develop into great players or become tradeable assets to most GMs. I hope you realize that free agency is specifically set up to create bidding wars in favour of the players, such that teams overpay. I hate to go all Glen Silvestri beancounter here, but overpaying for 2nd tier free agents not the way to build a team, IMO.

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          • golden wrote: View Post
            Well, you only chose to quote half of my sentence, but anyways, that's not the main point and no need to quibble about it. The main point is that that drafts and trades are much better ways to either build your core or build your assets. Far better than going after free agents. I have absolutely nothing against trades, but I am against free agency (especially if BC is dishing out the contract). Not sure why you used OKC as an example, because I don't recall them going after free agents. They did draft an asset (Jeff Green) who became valuable enough (but still on a cost-effective contract) to flip for a proven center (Perkins) who filled a specific need for them (front court playoff toughness), complementing the existing core. Raps need to continue to stockpile picks and cost-effective talent which can either develop into great players or become tradeable assets to most GMs. I hope you realize that free agency is specifically set up to create bidding wars in favour of the players, such that teams overpay. I hate to go all Glen Silvestri beancounter here, but overpaying for 2nd tier free agents not the way to build a team, IMO.
            Where are the Raptors weakest? On the wing.
            What position does Wilson Chandler play? The wing.

            I've listed the going rate for established, starting wings around the league. The idea was never to overpay for Wilson Chandler. If the Raptors are going to overpay, I'm not interested. The whole point in pursuing Chandler is 1) he has talent and extremely versatile in the 3/2 manner rather the 3/4 as we currently have, 2) he is better than any wing currently on the Raptors roster, 3) Denver has $18M tied up in Gallo and Afflalo. The last one is the whole point. They may not have to over pay given Denver's situation - they have $55M tied up in 10 players for next year with little depth at C and no back up PG. If they sign Chandler they have the MLE and minimum contracts to round out their roster. They might be happy with that though - who knows. However, they also have Ty Lawson coming up for a hefty contract extension after next year that if they sign Chandler and then extend Lawson, they are going to be very close to the luxury tax right at the time the new tax rules are implemented in the CBA.

            I absolutely agree the best way to build a team is through trades and the draft. However, it does not mean free agency is not an effective tool. If the Raptors were to sign a wing (say Chandler) they could then flip (say DeMar) for another area of need.

            As for OKC and free agency - specifically restricted free agency - they signed CJ Miles to an offer sheet which Utah matched and they signed Nenad Kristic to an offer sheet which NJ did not match.

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            • Isn't the max we can offer Chandler right now just 6.3 million dollars in year 1? Trading a player into somebody's TPE right now is difficult with everybody holding their breath for Dwight. Even teams not trying to directly land him are hoping to land a pick by helping facilitate the deal. Excuse my ignorance if I am wrong.

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              • AK47 and Wilson Chandler

                I dont undertsand why Colangelo is even interested in Kirlilenko and Chandler? To me this is another Colangelo quick fix . He doesnt get it! we need to build through the draft, not signing useless scrubs. Im angry about this if he signs them.

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                • big_chris wrote: View Post
                  Isn't the max we can offer Chandler right now just 6.3 million dollars in year 1? Trading a player into somebody's TPE right now is difficult with everybody holding their breath for Dwight. Even teams not trying to directly land him are hoping to land a pick by helping facilitate the deal. Excuse my ignorance if I am wrong.
                  The most Toronto can offer is around $4.3-$4.7M. HoopsHype.com does not include Forbes $1.5M contract in their total for the Raps this season, including that gives around $4.7M. The ESPN Trade Machine says the Raps have $4.3M in cap room. So who knows.


                  Dwight Howard and March 1st (when teams can trade free agents signed previous summer) are looking like the two dominos that need to fall before any other moves are made. Very similar to the Melo situation last year.

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                  • rapsfan2011 wrote: View Post
                    I dont undertsand why Colangelo is even interested in Kirlilenko and Chandler? To me this is another Colangelo quick fix . He doesnt get it! we need to build through the draft, not signing useless scrubs. Im angry about this if he signs them.
                    I am 100% in agreement on Kirilenko. He is going to be 31 next season with a brutal injury history.

                    Chandler is another story. There are around 200 posts in this thread addressing the pros and cons of his possible signing so no need to get in to again.

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                    • You know what Chandler isnt THAT bad if we get him for a good price but AK47 no way . Im more hopeful we can draft Kidd-Gilchrist or Harrison Barnes to be our future SF.

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                      • will, will most likely be looking for an end of the year deal. even if we sign him for longer we can always trade him. its not going to be hard to trade him for a top ten pick and then we get two potential stars out of this draft plus jv.
                        If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                        Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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                        • i think the kirelnko name dropping was word play. cant say we want to blow chandler all over the place but we would settle for him if we had too.

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                          • LBF wrote: View Post
                            will, will most likely be looking for an end of the year deal. even if we sign him for longer we can always trade him. its not going to be hard to trade him for a top ten pick and then we get two potential stars out of this draft plus jv.
                            Regardless of how good he is, there is no one that is going to give up a top 10 draft pick (in this draft) for him.

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                            • Larry Coon helps clear the air

                              Looks very unlikely WC comes to Toronto this year..... unless Denver renounces his rights (i.e. lets an asset leave for nothing.... I don't think so):

                              As such, several NBA free agents – most notably Aaron Brooks, Wilson Chandler, and J.R. Smith – are awaiting the expiration of their Chinese contracts before they can return to the NBA. Each is bound to his team until its final game, either regular season or playoffs. The CBA regular season ends on February 15, with the playoffs scheduled to start on February 22. Postseason play could last as long as March 30.

                              This poses an additional problem for Brooks and Chandler, who are restricted free agents. Under normal circumstances a restricted free agent can sign an offer sheet with the team of his choice, and the player’s prior team is given the opportunity to retain the player by matching the principal terms of the offer. If the team fails to match the offer (the time limit is three days), the offer sheet becomes a contract with the new team.

                              But restricted free agents can’t sign offer sheets after March 1 of any season, and this season is no exception. So Brooks and Chandler likely won’t be eligible to return to the NBA until after their eligibility to sign an offer sheet expires.

                              Both Chandler’s Zhejiang Guangsha and Brooks’ Guangdong Hongyuan appear poised to make deep playoff runs, which means neither player is likely to return to NBA before the March 1 deadline for signing an offer sheet. If Chandler wants to play in the NBA after March 1, his only option will be to return to the Denver Nuggets. Likewise with Brooks and the Phoenix Suns.

                              This begs the question; do their previous teams want them back? For instance the Suns might feel they are fine at point guard with Steve Nash, Ronnie Price and Sebastian Telfair, and may decide against adding Brooks for just a few games. Even if they decide to re-sign him, they could realize that they are literally bidding against themselves, and lowball their offer.

                              A sign-and-trade arrangement, in which one of these players is signed by his previous team and immediately traded to a new team, is out of the question. The new collective bargaining agreement prohibits sign-and-trades after the season starts.

                              There are just three possibilities that could allow Chandler and Brooks to play for another NBA team. First, if either player’s team’s season ends before March 1, he will be free to return to the NBA and could sign an offer sheet with another team before the deadline.

                              Second, their Chinese teams could release them prior to March 1, even though they are still playing. But even if Brooks or Chandler is granted his release, obtaining a FIBA letters of clearance is uncertain. For example, Kenyon Martin was released by the Xinjiang Guanghui Flying Tigers midway through the Chinese season, but was only granted his letter of clearance when the Flying Tigers failed to respond to FIBA’s request in the allotted time.

                              The last possibility is if Brooks or Chandler return to the NBA after March 1, the Suns or Nuggets could renounce them, making them unrestricted free agents. They would then be free to sign with any team. However this would require a measure of goodwill on the part of the teams, since either team could reclaim its rights to restricted free agency by submitting a new qualifying offer by June 30.

                              So if these players return to the NBA after March 1 and don’t sign with their previous teams, they likely must wait until this summer – when they again will be subject to restricted free agency. It’s potentially a no-win situation for both.

                              Source: Larry Coon, HoopsWorld.com

                              My last question would be:

                              If WC returns after March 1st and sign a contract for the rest of this season only with Denver, is he still restricted come the summer?
                              Last edited by mcHAPPY; Wed Feb 8, 2012, 07:00 AM.

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                              • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                Looks very unlikely WC comes to Toronto this year..... unless Denver renounces his rights (i.e. lets an asset leave for nothing.... I don't think so):




                                Source: Larry Coon, HoopsWorld.com

                                My last question would be:

                                If WC returns after March 1st and sign a contract for the rest of this season only with Denver, is he still restricted come the summer?
                                this makes me a sad panda

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