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  • #46
    Bargnani was great to start the year.... but he's like a Rajon Rondo in that he takes a lot off the table for a guy as good as he is. What Bargnani took off the table will take above average work by both guy's beside him to make up. MKG brings in bunches everything Bargnani is lacking.

    We can get a dynamic scoring PG or SG. Can't find a PG or SG who will grab us 7+ rebounds a game. MKG leaves us with an issue to fix somewhere else. Barnes and Miller don't leave us with that problem, but the problems they leave us with can't be made up for somewhere else.

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    • #47
      big_chris wrote: View Post
      Bargnani was great to start the year.... but he's like a Rajon Rondo in that he takes a lot off the table for a guy as good as he is. What Bargnani took off the table will take above average work by both guy's beside him to make up. MKG brings in bunches everything Bargnani is lacking.

      We can get a dynamic scoring PG or SG. Can't find a PG or SG who will grab us 7+ rebounds a game. MKG leaves us with an issue to fix somewhere else. Barnes and Miller don't leave us with that problem, but the problems they leave us with can't be made up for somewhere else.
      I'm not sure that is the case anymore regarding Bargnani. Obviously it is still a small sample size but the Raptors have been a much better team this year offensively AND defensively with him in the lineup. He was playing really good on the ball defense, guarding pick and rolls, and while he wasn't getting loads of rebounds, his man wasn't either i.e. he was boxing.

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      • #48
        Matt52 wrote: View Post
        If this new Bargnani is here for good, I consider Bargnani a legit first option on offense. The Raptors do not have a 2nd option. I don't think that is DeRozan who would probably be considered a 3rd/4th option. The Raptors really need a legit 2nd option on offense - someone who can stretch the defense, create their own shot, and average close to 20 ppg.

        If the Raptors had that elusive 2nd option, then yes, I do think MKG is worth the high draft pick. This is not an original thought on my part but I think it is a fair comparison: MKG is similar to Gerald Wallace.

        He is only 18 years old - not 19 until September. This was written about him last year in high school by DraftExpress. I think what he has shown this year in college makes the comments equally attributable in the NCAA. One can only hope and assume that these traits will carry over to the NBA.
        I was thinking of Crash as a good comparison, as they both have great motors, but Gilchrist would have to fill out considerably to play the way Wallace does.

        Not saying it's impossible but if we are going to take a swing with upside right now I would rank Lamb and Miller slightly above MKG. As much as I love his defence I question his other skills and how they translate at an NBA level.

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        • #49
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          If this new Bargnani is here for good, I consider Bargnani a legit first option on offense. The Raptors do not have a 2nd option. I don't think that is DeRozan who would probably be considered a 3rd/4th option. The Raptors really need a legit 2nd option on offense - someone who can stretch the defense, create their own shot, and average close to 20 ppg.

          If the Raptors had that elusive 2nd option, then yes, I do think MKG is worth the high draft pick. This is not an original thought on my part but I think it is a fair comparison: MKG is similar to Gerald Wallace.

          He is only 18 years old - not 19 until September. This was written about him last year in high school by DraftExpress. I think what he has shown this year in college makes the comments equally attributable in the NCAA. One can only hope and assume that these traits will carry over to the NBA.
          As much as I have liked Bargnani's improved play of late, I also prefer my #1 scoring option to be a guard or a swing, unless his name is Dirk.

          I think that recent history has shown us that big men are essential for defence and rebounding and can indeed be major contributors offensively but the smalls do the crunch time scoring and creating making life easier for their teammates.

          Unless of course you feel Andrea can score at a Dirk like level and be that guy late in games, but thats an entirely different thread and not one I even want to get into. lol

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          • #50
            sleepz wrote: View Post
            As much as I have liked Bargnani's improved play of late, I also prefer my #1 scoring option to be a guard or a swing, unless his name is Dirk.

            I think that recent history has shown us that big men are essential for defence and rebounding and can indeed be major contributors offensively but the smalls do the crunch time scoring and creating making life easier for their teammates.

            Unless of course you feel Andrea can score at a Dirk like level and be that guy late in games, but thats an entirely different thread and not one I even want to get into. lol
            I don't think there is one set formula for winning. Every team (and there have not been too many) that has won it all in the last 25 years have been different. There are many ways to go about building a winning team and a cookie-cutter approach is not going to work. If it did, everyone would do it.

            As for Bargnani, you are right, that is another thread that has been done before - extensively. However, if the 13 games becomes the norm (and I fully agree that is a big 'if') he is, in my opinion, a #1 scoring option.

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            • #51
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              I don't think there is one set formula for winning. Every team (and there have not been too many) that has won it all in the last 25 years have been different. There are many ways to go about building a winning team and a cookie-cutter approach is not going to work. If it did, everyone would do it.

              As for Bargnani, you are right, that is another thread that has been done before - extensively. However, if the 13 games becomes the norm (and I fully agree that is a big 'if') he is, in my opinion, a #1 scoring option.
              There is one requirement that I can think of, which every championship team going back to the Lakers/Pistons of the late 80's have had, and that is one big defensive anchor. It is that reason why I think "haters" of Bargnani have been so down on him in the past, for not fulfilling the traditional C role. That is precisely the reason I am so happy with his transition to PF and why the thought of pairing him with Valanciunas is such a hopeful one! I think Valanciunas has the game that could eventually become a true defensive anchor in the middle.

              Bulls - Cartright, then Longley
              Rockets - Hakeem
              Spurs - Robinson, Duncan
              Lakers - O'Neal, Bynum/Gasol
              Heat - O'Neal, Mourning
              Pistons - Wallace
              Mavs - Chandler

              In a perfect world, Valanciunas would become the shot blocking/altering defensive anchor of the Raptors for the next 10-15 years
              Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Mon Feb 13th, 2012, 05:58 PM.

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              • #52
                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                I'm not sure that is the case anymore regarding Bargnani. Obviously it is still a small sample size but the Raptors have been a much better team this year offensively AND defensively with him in the lineup. He was playing really good on the ball defense, guarding pick and rolls, and while he wasn't getting loads of rebounds, his man wasn't either i.e. he was boxing.
                For all his improvement, Bargnani is still a liability on the boards. He's attacking on offense at a high level and has been a disruptive force on defense... but his lack of production on the glass can't just be ignored because he does that other stuff well. It needs to be compensated for.

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                • #53
                  big_chris wrote: View Post
                  For all his improvement, Bargnani is still a liability on the boards. He's attacking on offense at a high level and has been a disruptive force on defense... but his lack of production on the glass can't just be ignored because he does that other stuff well. It needs to be compensated for.
                  I disagree.

                  In the 13 games Bargnani has played this year the Raptors are 8-4-1 when it comes to team rebounding.

                  In the 16 games without Bargnani the Raptors are 5-11 in team rebounding.

                  So while Bargnani might not grab the rebound, the Raptors have been better rebounding as a team with him in the lineup than without.

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                  • #54
                    Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    I disagree.

                    In the 13 games Bargnani has played this year the Raptors are 8-4-1 when it comes to team rebounding.

                    In the 16 games without Bargnani the Raptors are 5-11 in team rebounding.

                    So while Bargnani might not grab the rebound, the Raptors have been better rebounding as a team with him in the lineup than without.
                    On / off numbers show the team grabs 46.4% of available rebounds while Bargnani is on the floor. That's -4.5 rebounds vs the opponent per 35 minutes in an average, 84 rebound game. We had Amir, Davis and JJohnson coming off the bench there to bring up the team numbers in a line-up that struggled to score.

                    It would be like having a perimeter guy who couldn't shoot. If they did enough other stuff well, they can be a great player... but you have to put a shooter on each side of them if you don't want to be fighting uphill battles all the time.

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                    • #55
                      yo chris i love your pic. u should put miller and barnes in it too as possible future raptors

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                      • #56
                        NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                        Barnes or Miller comes to mind
                        Exactly.

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                        • #57
                          Maleko wrote: View Post
                          Exactly.
                          ya bro, imagine the offesive nuclear bomb those 3 will bring. Barnes/Miller, DeRozan and Bargs that is too much. Also packaged with Dwane casey's ultimate defense this team would be unstoppable

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                          • #58
                            NoPropsneeded wrote: View Post
                            yo chris i love your pic. u should put miller and barnes in it too as possible future raptors
                            How about MKG and Kabongo? :-) It's getting hard to cram in more guy's.

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                            • #59
                              big_chris wrote: View Post
                              On / off numbers show the team grabs 46.4% of available rebounds while Bargnani is on the floor. That's -4.5 rebounds vs the opponent per 35 minutes in an average, 84 rebound game. We had Amir, Davis and JJohnson coming off the bench there to bring up the team numbers in a line-up that struggled to score.

                              It would be like having a perimeter guy who couldn't shoot. If they did enough other stuff well, they can be a great player... but you have to put a shooter on each side of them if you don't want to be fighting uphill battles all the time.
                              Regardless of who was coming off the bench, the team has won the rebounding match ups 2/3's of the time with Bargnani in the lineup. The team is also 6-7 with him and 2-12 without him.

                              I appreciate your argument but I disagree.

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                              • #60
                                As long as Bargnani is producing efficient offensive numbers, and he continues to improve defensively under Casey, I agree with Matt. He can be our #1 scoring option (a la Dirk).

                                [I can't believe it's taken a mere 13 games for Bargnani to sway me....]

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