Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

February 12 - Los Angeles Lakers

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    Quite simply ... Nope. In my humble opinion of course.
    For that price I'd much rather keep him around and just let the Contract expire.
    Looking at it from a straight black and white perspective, I would tend to agree. But....

    There could be a little bit of gray thrown in to the mix. The thing to keep in mind is we have no idea what information BC (or any other GM) might have. We also have no idea what his plan might be. There could be many trade possibilities or free agent signings that the extra cap space might permit to happen that if the shitty draft pick or extra cap space did not exist, they would not happen.

    If Jose was traded for just cap space and a draft pick(s) I would have to think other moves were on the horizon on leading up to draft night or at the start of the off-season (July 1st - free agency or, again, trades).

    Comment


    • Matt52 wrote: View Post
      So we have a small company with 15 employees. One of those employees are involved with activities outside of work that cause them to miss 17% of work days in the year. Alright, it happens once - no big deal. It happens 3 years in a row as his injury history after 2008, 2009, and 2010 international competition were all given and now we've got a problem - specially when the employees who are stepping in for you are nowhere near your level of expertise and it is affecting the company's bottom line (in this case wins and losses).

      If Jose was giving back his salary for each game played, his missed games were not counting towards the salary cap, and there was a player of equivalent performance there to pick up the slack - I have no problem. Unfortunately none of this is the case.

      No one is stopping Jose or any other player from playing international basketball during their down time. Unfortunately, no one is stopping him from accepting a $45M contract either.

      I hope Mark Cuban's outcries gain traction. Olympics and international competition use to be about amateur sport - I hope it returns to that.
      Continuing with this metaphor....

      What happens when Jose puts his own interest and the interest of others ahead of the interest of their employers (in this case the Raptors) and it affects the best interests of his fellow employees and superiors?

      Here we have Jose playing international ball this summer as the undisputed starting PG of the Toronto Raptors thanks to Dwane Casey and making $10.5M thanks to Bryan Colangelo. Casey and Colangelo are going to be judged next year on progress but ultimately wins and losses as they both have team options for the 2013-14 season. If Jose is here and expected to be the starting PG yet he cannot perform due to injury suffered this summer or as a result of fatigue causing injury early in the Raptors season, is that fair to Casey and Colangelo who might have their jobs depending on him? What about DeMar or James Johnson looking for new contracts yet playing with a PG who does not provide the same opportunities Jose does.


      Jose playing this summer has now created the butterfly effect. I know a little dramatic.
      Last edited by mcHAPPY; Tue Feb 14th, 2012, 01:38 PM.

      Comment


      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
        Continuing with this metaphor....

        What happens when Jose puts his own interest and the interest of others ahead of the interest of their employers (in this case the Raptors) and it affects the best interests of his fellow employees and superiors?

        Here we have Jose playing international ball this summer as the undisputed starting PG of the Toronto Raptors thanks to Dwane Casey and making $10.5M thanks to Bryan Colangelo. Casey and Colangelo are going to be judged next year on progress but ultimately wins and losses as they both have team options for the 2013-14 season. If Jose is here and expected to be the starting PG yet he cannot perform due to injury suffered this summer or as a result of fatigue causing injury early in the Raptors season, is that fair to Casey and Colangelo who might have their jobs depending on him? What about DeMar or James Johnson looking for new contracts yet playing with a PG who does not provide the same opportunities Jose does.


        Jose playing this summer has now created the butterfly effect. I know a little dramatic.
        But they knew he will be playing for national team while signing him. Just don't sign international players, if you are afraid of them being injured in summer.. or add some close to their contract. Good thing Italy didn't qualify, otherwise Bargs might have the same issue. Brasil qualified though, is Barbossa playing ?(you wanted to resign him cheap, i think). Kleiza and JV seems to be playing, qualification at least.

        I don't think you have a right to blame Jose for for playing and causing possible butterfly effect, but you have a right to trade him, if you think the risk of him playing and being injured is too high, which was your starting point it seems. Question is, if that risk to be injured is that high as you think and if BC is thinking the same.

        Comment


        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
          Jose playing this summer has now created the butterfly effect. I know a little dramatic.
          The NBA believes the World Championships and the Olympics are good platforms to display its products and thus increase its popularity. The NBA is cognizant there is a risk one of its players can suffer a career-ending injury while participating in these events and it accepts the risk.

          I agree with this position.

          What I hear you saying is you, Matt, don't give a s**t about these events and would rather players skip those events for fear of injuries.

          Fair enough.

          I wish you position was more consistent however and that you stated the exact same thing when DeMar DeRozan participates in the silly exhibition games in the Summer. Or when Alabi trained with a non-staff trainer.

          Comment


          • Hugmenot wrote: View Post
            The NBA believes the World Championships and the Olympics are good platforms to display its products and thus increase its popularity. The NBA is cognizant there is a risk one of its players can suffer a career-ending injury while participating in these events and it accepts the risk.

            I agree with this position.

            What I hear you saying is you, Matt, don't give a s**t about these events and would rather players skip those events for fear of injuries.

            Fair enough.

            I wish you position was more consistent however and that you stated the exact same thing when DeMar DeRozan participates in the silly exhibition games in the Summer. Or when Alabi trained with a non-staff trainer.
            I think there's a noticeable difference between off-season training (which is what the Drew League is), versus tier-1 international competition. Especially if we're talking about long-term wearing down of bodies, as opposed to freak accidents.

            Comment


            • Nilanka wrote: View Post
              I think there's a noticeable difference between off-season training (which is what the Drew League is), versus tier-1 international competition. Especially if we're talking about long-term wearing down of bodies, as opposed to freak accidents.
              Ed Davis cost himself the beginning of his Rookie year because he decided to play in a pick-up game with Locals. I'd imagine Drew League goes a bit harder than that ...
              And I don't think we heard squat about Davis being disrespectful and selfish.

              Comment


              • irgigi wrote: View Post
                But they knew he will be playing for national team while signing him. Just don't sign international players, if you are afraid of them being injured in summer.. or add some close to their contract. Good thing Italy didn't qualify, otherwise Bargs might have the same issue. Brasil qualified though, is Barbossa playing ?(you wanted to resign him cheap, i think). Kleiza and JV seems to be playing, qualification at least.

                I don't think you have a right to blame Jose for for playing and causing possible butterfly effect, but you have a right to trade him, if you think the risk of him playing and being injured is too high, which was your starting point it seems. Question is, if that risk to be injured is that high as you think and if BC is thinking the same.
                Good point on the bold.

                I have no issue with younger players playing for national team or Bosh playing for USA when he was here (threw Bosh in there to be clear this is not a 'euro' thing).

                My issue is when players have a history of suffering from over use or fatigue injuries consistently playing and older players not getting the down time they need to recover and then train for upcoming competition.

                Given BC's consistent talk on 'PG of the future' one could draw the assumption of the injury risk having crossed his mind - but that is speculation on my part.

                Comment


                • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  Given BC's consistent talk on 'PG of the future' one could draw the assumption of the injury risk having crossed his mind - but that is speculation on my part.
                  Assumption and Speculation, is correct.
                  This whole thing has been just that.

                  It could also very simply be the fact that Jose is nearly 31 years old, and though that is not OLD per se in the NBA, BC would be silly not to do his due-diligence, in finding an eventual replacement.

                  Bringing in a 'PG for the Future' does NOT mean that you give away the 'PG of the Present' for nothing.
                  Nor does it imply that Jose is not part of the plans going forward, even in a diminished role.

                  Comment


                  • Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                    The NBA believes the World Championships and the Olympics are good platforms to display its products and thus increase its popularity. The NBA is cognizant there is a risk one of its players can suffer a career-ending injury while participating in these events and it accepts the risk.

                    I agree with this position.

                    What I hear you saying is you, Matt, don't give a s**t about these events and would rather players skip those events for fear of injuries.

                    Fair enough.

                    I wish you position was more consistent however and that you stated the exact same thing when DeMar DeRozan participates in the silly exhibition games in the Summer. Or when Alabi trained with a non-staff trainer.
                    Not everyone within the NBA is on board with participation in international competition. Mark Cuban is just one loud opponent.

                    Please don't put words in my mouth. At no point did I ever say or imply I don't give a shit about these events. What I said is these events (Olympics, World Championships, etc.) should be limited to amateur athletes. Same goes for NHL players in the Olympics.

                    Regarding DeRozan, pick up games are nowhere near the intensity or physicality of international basketball - especially heated rivalries between countries.

                    Regarding Alabi.... what? I don't see the relevancy here.



                    Back to the original issue: Jose has a history of injury after competing in summer competition. Him injured is not in the Raptors best interest. I am a huge Raptor fan and very selfishly as a Raptor fan do not wish to have possible trade(s) or free agent opportunities limited by his contract - especially given, based on history, the large risk of injury next year. Jose is a great teammate and person but he is not going to be leading the Raptors when the time comes to matter in this rebuilding project. If his contract can be shed for cap space this summer and a draft pick in a deep lottery, sign me up.


                    Maybe the Raptors sign a player like Andre Miller who is a pass first PG with a very good history of longevity to a 2 year contract at half the cost of Jose plus draft a PG like Kabongo to learn the ropes behind him.

                    Maybe the Raptors make a trade for a known commodity with the extra cap space by shedding Jose or are able to take on a 'bad' contract or include a draft pick(s) thanks to cap space and asset received in a trade for him.

                    Maybe the Raptors make a play for a well known free agent with the cap space by shedding Jose.

                    The bottom line is, he is not going to be a part of the Raptors in the future and there is a strong possibility he becomes an injured liability next year. If assets can be acquired for him now, namely, cap space and draft picks, do it.

                    Comment


                    • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                      Assumption and Speculation, is correct.
                      This whole thing has been just that.

                      It could also very simply be the fact that Jose is nearly 31 years old, and though that is not OLD per se in the NBA, BC would be silly not to do his due-diligence, in finding an eventual replacement.

                      Bringing in a 'PG for the Future' does NOT mean that you give away the 'PG of the Present' for nothing.
                      Nor does it imply that Jose is not part of the plans going forward, even in a diminished role.

                      That is the point: your opinion is cap space and a 20-plus draft pick is nothing. My opinion is that is very valuable given where the Raptors currently are in their rebuild. Flexibility and assets provides opportunities that otherwise would not exist.

                      If the Raptors were a playoff team looking to make a deep playoff run, of course, you don't give away the 'PG of the present'. But the Raptors are not a playoff team and they most likely won't be one for another season at best and most likely 2 seasons.

                      Comment


                      • And I do not think that that will be the best deal the Raptors can get for him.

                        So why take it.
                        (Thats speculation on my part, but should be fair game in this debate.)

                        Comment


                        • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                          And I do not think that that will be the best deal the Raptors can get for him.

                          So why take it.
                          (Thats speculation on my part, but should be fair game in this debate.)
                          What his worth is in a trade is a totally different debate in my opinion.

                          But if cap space and a late pick is the best deal available for him, I take it.
                          If there is better out there for him, I take that too.


                          These basketball journalists and HoopsWorld.com 'experts' are a fickle crew - maybe even more fickle than the ficklest of us RR faithful. Up until mid-January, Jose was laughed regarding his talent, contract, and worth to another NBA team. They seem to have forgotten all the reasons why they felt that way.... or maybe not. Most likely they succumbed to group think which they continue to suffer from in my opinion.

                          Comment


                          • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                            Ed Davis cost himself the beginning of his Rookie year because he decided to play in a pick-up game with Locals. I'd imagine Drew League goes a bit harder than that ...
                            And I don't think we heard squat about Davis being disrespectful and selfish.
                            Davis' injury was a freak accident. He could've hurt his knee stepping out of his car (I'm exaggerating, I know). But that doesn't excuse his decision to play in a non-sanctioned game. He was an idiot for playing in that pickup game, no doubt.

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              That is the point: your opinion is cap space and a 20-plus draft pick is nothing. My opinion is that is very valuable given where the Raptors currently are in their rebuild. Flexibility and assets provides opportunities that otherwise would not exist.
                              The absence of a starting quality point guard on the roster would also create an obligation that the Raptors would not have should Calderon remains with the team. Less flexibility in that respect.

                              My last intervention as it's clear we will not agree on this subject.

                              Comment


                              • Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                                The absence of a starting quality point guard on the roster would also create an obligation that the Raptors would not have should Calderon remains with the team. Less flexibility in that respect.

                                My last intervention as it's clear we will not agree on this subject.
                                Calderon on the roster this summer may very well create a situation where they have a possibility to add a PG for the future but they can't due to CBA rules. Less flexibility in that respect.

                                Minus Calderon with no other salary coming back, they would also have upwards $21M dollars to address the PG obligation via trade or free agency.

                                It is clear Calderon is not the PG of the distant future. If he is injured next season, which is a distinct possibility based on history, he might not be the PG of the near future either.

                                As I've said throughout, if Jose was not injured next year then no doubt I would want him. But given his history after summer's with international play, I don't think this is highly probable - especially when he will be 31.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X