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February 12 - Los Angeles Lakers

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  • Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I think it's on the assumption that this team won't be ready to "compete" for another 2-5 years. And in terms of sustainability, it's in the team's best interest to find a PG who will be in his prime during these years, not the twilight of his career. I don't know if people want Calderon gone per se, but instead acknowledge the fact that he's not our long-term answer.

    What to do with him is anyone's guess, whether you trade him, let his contract expire, or re-sign him as a backup PG.
    You nailed it.

    If he stayed healthy that would change things but I see the risk too large.

    Regardless, another wing is the more pressing need at this time.

    Comment


    • MangoKid wrote: View Post
      I'm still trying to find out why fans want Calderon gone so badly, especially since there's no one to really replace the guy. No team is going to give you a real sweetheart deal, just contenders with very late first rounders and spare parts on their roster.

      Jennings won't come cheap and Kabongo unless he's promised that he'd be picked in the lotto would be a fool to enter the draft (and I can't see him being the draft unless he does get that promise)
      Lets have that conversation when he comes back from London injured.

      Comment


      • Matt52 wrote: View Post
        Lets have that conversation when he comes back from London injured.
        Why are you slagging on the guy for playing for his country?And why would he come back from the Olympics injured?
        If anything, he should be fine. The Raps won't be in the playoffs, giving him plenty of time to rest up before August. If anyone on the Spain NT is going to be tired and at a greater risk of injury, it'll be guys like the Gasols and Ibaka since they'll probably be participating in the nba playoffs this year.
        In addition, Calderon won't be counted on by Spain to play heavy minutes like he has in the past, not with Rubio playing like he has. If anything, Jose will be sharp coming into camp, and will probably have a head start on some of the guys.

        Comment


        • Matt52 wrote: View Post
          I didn't realize you and Steve were tight.

          NY will only have the MLE to offer.

          There is also the expression, "Don't sh!t in your own nest." He might not wish to play in his nest.
          Gotta love the opening remark rebuttal.

          Anyway, back on topic, even if the Knicks were only able to offer the mle to Nash, my gut instinct is that he'd take it. I don't think he's hard up for money that he'd be seeking a massive payday. New York is home to him, he gets to play in a big time market with a coach he's familiar with and a couple of players he's familiar with. The only other place he might end up is Dallas, should they be unsuccessful in their attempts to lure Deron Williams back home.

          Comment


          • MangoKid wrote: View Post
            Why are you slagging on the guy for playing for his country?And why would he come back from the Olympics injured?
            If anything, he should be fine. The Raps won't be in the playoffs, giving him plenty of time to rest up before August. If anyone on the Spain NT is going to be tired and at a greater risk of injury, it'll be guys like the Gasols and Ibaka since they'll probably be participating in the nba playoffs this year.
            In addition, Calderon won't be counted on by Spain to play heavy minutes like he has in the past, not with Rubio playing like he has. If anything, Jose will be sharp coming into camp, and will probably have a head start on some of the guys.
            I'm not slagging on him for playing for his country. I am slagging on him because as a Raptors fan his playing FIBA basketball in the summer is not in my best interests as a Raptors fan. It is totally selfish on my part but I very much agree with Mark Cuban about guys getting paid tens of millions of dollars to play in the NBA only to show up unable to perform due to fatigue and over use injuries (like pulled hamstring, groin, and hip flexor).

            I should have used different words in saying coming back from the Olympics injured. I should have said he would come back from the Olympics injured or end up injured early in training camp or the season. Why would this happen? Because it happened after every international competition he has played in for the last 4 years. 2008 Olympics, bad hamstring all season. 2009 Euro Champsionship, bad hip. 2010 World Championships, bad feet and ankles. 2011 World Championships, no injuries (which can could be attributed to a long layoff due to lockout and possibly less minutes due to Rubio's rise). All of his injuries happen early in the season as well (November, December) and linger for the year.

            I don't buy the argument of NBA playoffs having an effect because the Raptors didn't make the playoffs in 2009 and 2010 and were first round exits in 2008 yet still had injuries in each of those years.

            Preparing for the Olympics is a great opportunity to stay in game shape. The problem is there is an 82 game season which requires a body to be strong. You can't do this type of training (specifically core, strength, and flexibility training) in season. Preparing for the Olympics with warm up tournaments, exhibition games, and the Olympics itself is like another season with another 20 games added in July and August.

            Three last thoughts:

            1) before the last two games versus Boston and LA, look at his game log. He is not consistently putting up these types of numbers - or anywhere near it in fact. It tends to be hit or miss, 50/50.

            2) I think fans have been caught up in the last few games and have short memories of the Jose who is battling injuries and unable to defend or perform. I would love to have a healthy Jose on the Raptors moving forward. The problem is I don't think this is very likely given his past history and desire to continue playing international ball each summer. There will be no lockout this fall allowing guys an extended break.

            3) Garbajosa. His injury initially occurred in the NBA but his participation in international competition that summer never allowed him to heal to be able to perform at the NBA level. Many players are willing to play in the summer, injured or hurt, to represent their country but then sit out the NBA season while collecting a cheque at the expense of teams and their fans. Again, selfish on my part but that is my right as a fan.

            Comment


            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
              I'm not slagging on him for playing for his country. I am slagging on him because as a Raptors fan his playing FIBA basketball in the summer is not in my best interests as a Raptors fan. It is totally selfish on my part but I very much agree with Mark Cuban about guys getting paid tens of millions of dollars to play in the NBA only to show up unable to perform due to fatigue and over use injuries (like pulled hamstring, groin, and hip flexor).

              I should have used different words in saying coming back from the Olympics injured. I should have said he would come back from the Olympics injured or end up injured early in training camp or the season. Why would this happen? Because it happened after every international competition he has played in for the last 4 years. 2008 Olympics, bad hamstring all season. 2009 Euro Champsionship, bad hip. 2010 World Championships, bad feet and ankles. 2011 World Championships, no injuries (which can could be attributed to a long layoff due to lockout and possibly less minutes due to Rubio's rise). All of his injuries happen early in the season as well (November, December) and linger for the year.

              I don't buy the argument of NBA playoffs having an effect because the Raptors didn't make the playoffs in 2009 and 2010 and were first round exits in 2008 yet still had injuries in each of those years.

              Preparing for the Olympics is a great opportunity to stay in game shape. The problem is there is an 82 game season which requires a body to be strong. You can't do this type of training (specifically core, strength, and flexibility training) in season. Preparing for the Olympics with warm up tournaments, exhibition games, and the Olympics itself is like another season with another 20 games added in July and August.

              Three last thoughts:

              1) before the last two games versus Boston and LA, look at his game log. He is not consistently putting up these types of numbers - or anywhere near it in fact. It tends to be hit or miss, 50/50.

              2) I think fans have been caught up in the last few games and have short memories of the Jose who is battling injuries and unable to defend or perform. I would love to have a healthy Jose on the Raptors moving forward. The problem is I don't think this is very likely given his past history and desire to continue playing international ball each summer. There will be no lockout this fall allowing guys an extended break.

              3) Garbajosa. His injury initially occurred in the NBA but his participation in international competition that summer never allowed him to heal to be able to perform at the NBA level. Many players are willing to play in the summer, injured or hurt, to represent their country but then sit out the NBA season while collecting a cheque at the expense of teams and their fans. Again, selfish on my part but that is my right as a fan.

              Who's really going to turn down an opportunity to play for their country? If your country calls on you, do you turn them down?
              How many times have you seen a guy turn down a chance to play for their country? These kind of opportunities don't occur often. Are we going to complain when Kleiza plays for Lithuania? Did we complain when Vince played for the USA? You're right when you state that 2008, 2009 and 2010 injuries could be pointed to the fact that he played a lot of minutes for the Raptors then played for Spain - and Spain counted upon him heavily. This time around, with the kind of season that Rubio is having, you would have a hard time convincing me that Rubio wouldn't take the pressure off of Calderon. Rubio is going to eat into a lot of those minutes and if anything, would probably get the lion's share of time. I believe that Calderon will come into training camp in good enough shape and will be ready to roll.

              As a Raptors fan, I'm not looking at Calderon to consistently score. I'm looking at him to be a facilitator and to take care of the ball - and on occasion, hit that open jumper or drive to the hole. If he puts up 10 ppg, I'm a happy camper. First and foremost, I want Calderon to distribute and create no turnovers. I don't want him to be a Bayless-type player, looking for his shot first and getting teammates involved secondly. Looking at his games prior to the Lakers and Celtics, he didn't have great games against the Wizards (on the road) and Heat, but he did have pretty good games against Milwaukee and the home win versus Washington. He's probably one of the very few consistent players on this team. You know what you're gonna get from him. He's going to put out maximum effort, dish out 10 assists, take care of the rock and sink a few buckets while hitting his shots from the line. That's what I'd want my ideal point guard to do. That's just me however. Everyone's likes and dislikes are going to differ.

              In regards to Garbajosa, I don't think many people really expected the guy to come back and re-claim his starting spot. I really didn't. That injury was gruesome. I knew right from then that he would never be the same player. And if he were to come back, he would come off the bench in spot minutes. I don't think him taking the summer off would have made that much of a difference to be honest. You have a right as a fan to not want the guy to play for his country in the summer, but in the end, when your country calls on you, it's very difficult to turn them down.

              Comment


              • MangoKid wrote: View Post
                Who's really going to turn down an opportunity to play for their country? If your country calls on you, do you turn them down?
                How many times have you seen a guy turn down a chance to play for their country? These kind of opportunities don't occur often. Are we going to complain when Kleiza plays for Lithuania? Did we complain when Vince played for the USA? You're right when you state that 2008, 2009 and 2010 injuries could be pointed to the fact that he played a lot of minutes for the Raptors then played for Spain - and Spain counted upon him heavily. This time around, with the kind of season that Rubio is having, you would have a hard time convincing me that Rubio wouldn't take the pressure off of Calderon. Rubio is going to eat into a lot of those minutes and if anything, would probably get the lion's share of time. I believe that Calderon will come into training camp in good enough shape and will be ready to roll.
                I agree with your comments on Rubio. I meant to make that more clear in my reply.

                Steve Nash turned down the opportunity to play for Canada since he was about 30. There was issues with how Jay Triano was treated By Basketball Canada but he also made clear the NBA was his livelihood and it came first. I respect that decision after 12 years of representing Canada while other top talent did not - yes, you, Jamaal.

                Very good arguments can be made on both sides of the debate of representing your country versus honouring your contract with an NBA team.

                MangoKid wrote: View Post
                As a Raptors fan, I'm not looking at Calderon to consistently score. I'm looking at him to be a facilitator and to take care of the ball - and on occasion, hit that open jumper or drive to the hole. If he puts up 10 ppg, I'm a happy camper. First and foremost, I want Calderon to distribute and create no turnovers. I don't want him to be a Bayless-type player, looking for his shot first and getting teammates involved secondly. Looking at his games prior to the Lakers and Celtics, he didn't have great games against the Wizards (on the road) and Heat, but he did have pretty good games against Milwaukee and the home win versus Washington. He's probably one of the very few consistent players on this team. You know what you're gonna get from him. He's going to put out maximum effort, dish out 10 assists, take care of the rock and sink a few buckets while hitting his shots from the line. That's what I'd want my ideal point guard to do. That's just me however. Everyone's likes and dislikes are going to differ.
                The issue isn't Jose's game, I like his game as well. But if he is not 100% he becomes a major liability as he has shown over the years. I haven't seen him play injured with Casey so who knows if it would still be the case. Also, the team has not had major success with Jose in Toronto. I can understand respecting the guy but we're not talking about a PG who has led the Raptors to the upper echelon of the league. Nobody on this team is good enough to label untouchable.

                MangoKid wrote: View Post
                In regards to Garbajosa, I don't think many people really expected the guy to come back and re-claim his starting spot. I really didn't. That injury was gruesome. I knew right from then that he would never be the same player. And if he were to come back, he would come off the bench in spot minutes. I don't think him taking the summer off would have made that much of a difference to be honest. You have a right as a fan to not want the guy to play for his country in the summer, but in the end, when your country calls on you, it's very difficult to turn them down.
                The issue is not would Garbajosa come back. The issue is he put the interests of the Raptors, the team that paid his multi-million dollar contract, secondary to that of his own. He was not healthy enough to play yet he did. Any chance he had of ever recovering to play the next season was gone. Tying this back to Calderon and my original comment, it is not in the best interests of the Raptors for him to play as history has shown. It will be very interesting to see fan reactions next year if Jose is still a Raptor and he has a bad groin/hamstring/hip/back in November.

                Comment


                • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                  Steve Nash turned down the opportunity to play for Canada since he was about 30. There was issues with how Jay Triano was treated By Basketball Canada but he also made clear the NBA was his livelihood and it came first. I respect that decision after 12 years of representing Canada while other top talent did not - yes, you, Jamaal.
                  And Calderon is 30 right now. So who knows, maybe with Rubio coming up, Calderon starts to wind down his commitments.
                  This whole debate is based around speculation and assumptions that he will FOR SURE be injured. Which I don't think is fair.

                  The issue isn't Jose's game, I like his game as well. But if he is not 100% he becomes a major liability as he has shown over the years. I haven't seen him play injured with Casey so who knows if it would still be the case. Also, the team has not had major success with Jose in Toronto. I can understand respecting the guy but we're not talking about a PG who has led the Raptors to the upper echelon of the league. Nobody on this team is good enough to label untouchable.
                  We had just as much success with Bosh as we did with Calderon.
                  Did that make Bosh an expendable piece?
                  Clearly not, as evidenced by our record after he left.

                  And I'm not sure anyone has ever tried to label Calderon as 'untouchable'.
                  I personally only took issue with the fact that you're now 'auditioning' Calderon for nothing more than a TPE and a shitty Draft Pick.

                  Calderon is a VERY good Point Guard, and is certainly worth much more than that.
                  I just didn't understand why you were so ready to trade him to the Lakers for nothing.

                  Comment


                  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    The issue is he put the interests of the Raptors, the team that paid his multi-million dollar contract, secondary to that of his own.
                    I volunteered for Habitat for Humanity for the past 20 years. Every few years, someone will end hurt and will miss a few days/weeks of work because accidents do happen.

                    All because they put their own interest and the interest of others ahead of the interest of their employers.

                    These f***ing selfish bastards should all be fired for not considering the best interest of the shareholders.

                    But on the other hand, I am appreciative of the fact many people will do what they believe is right despite exposing themselves to personal risk, be it large or almost nil. A big thank you for your involvement in your communities!

                    Comment


                    • Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                      I volunteered for Habitat for Humanity for the past 20 years. Every few years, someone will end hurt and will miss a few days/weeks of work because accidents do happen.

                      All because they put their own interest and the interest of others ahead of the interest of their employers.

                      These f***ing selfish bastards should all be fired for not considering the best interest of the shareholders.

                      But on the other hand, I am appreciative of the fact many people will do what they believe is right despite exposing themselves to personal risk, be it large or almost nil. A big thank you for your involvement in your communities!

                      You are comparing apples and oranges - and not very well at that.

                      Comment


                      • Hugmenot wrote: View Post
                        I volunteered for Habitat for Humanity for the past 20 years. Every few years, someone will end hurt and will miss a few days/weeks of work because accidents do happen.

                        All because they put their own interest and the interest of others ahead of the interest of their employers.

                        These f***ing selfish bastards should all be fired for not considering the best interest of the shareholders.

                        But on the other hand, I am appreciative of the fact many people will do what they believe is right despite exposing themselves to personal risk, be it large or almost nil. A big thank you for your involvement in your communities!
                        Lol Hugs. Tongue planted firmly in Cheek?


                        Matt52 wrote: View Post
                        You are comparing apples and oranges - and not very well at that.
                        I thought it was a fine metaphor.
                        Weighs ones Desire to put ones own interests, and the interests of others, ahead of those of your Employer.

                        If anything its like comparing Granny Smith Apples vs. Macintosh Apples, in my opinion.
                        Last edited by Joey; Tue Feb 14, 2012, 11:33 AM.

                        Comment


                        • [QUOTE=joey_hesketh;113626

                          If anything its like comparing Granny Smith Apples vs. Macintosh Apples, in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

                          Or Apples with PCs :-)

                          Comment


                          • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                            Lol Hugs. Tongue planted firmly in Cheek?




                            I thought it was a fine metaphor.
                            Weighs ones Desire to put ones own interests, and the interests of others, ahead of those of your Employer.

                            If anything its like comparing Granny Smith Apples vs. Macintosh Apples, in my opinion.

                            So we have a small company with 15 employees. One of those employees are involved with activities outside of work that cause them to miss 17% of work days in the year. Alright, it happens once - no big deal. It happens 3 years in a row as his injury history after 2008, 2009, and 2010 international competition were all given and now we've got a problem - specially when the employees who are stepping in for you are nowhere near your level of expertise and it is affecting the company's bottom line (in this case wins and losses).

                            If Jose was giving back his salary for each game played, his missed games were not counting towards the salary cap, and there was a player of equivalent performance there to pick up the slack - I have no problem. Unfortunately none of this is the case.

                            No one is stopping Jose or any other player from playing international basketball during their down time. Unfortunately, no one is stopping him from accepting a $45M contract either.

                            I hope Mark Cuban's outcries gain traction. Olympics and international competition use to be about amateur sport - I hope it returns to that.

                            Comment


                            • joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                              I personally only took issue with the fact that you're now 'auditioning' Calderon for nothing more than a TPE and a shitty Draft Pick.
                              I realize this is a big "if", but if the best offer we get between now and the expiration of Calderon's contract is a TPE and a shitty pick, wouldn't it be best to take it?

                              Comment


                              • Nilanka wrote: View Post
                                I realize this is a big "if", but if the best offer we get between now and the expiration of Calderon's contract is a TPE and a shitty pick, wouldn't it be best to take it?
                                Quite simply ... Nope. In my humble opinion of course.
                                For that price I'd much rather keep him around and just let the Contract expire.

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