Nash Watch: L.A. bound (#1009)

[Brandon]

This is a fatal dose of glass-half-full.

The Raptors don't really have many "effective role players", Casey isn't a "genius", and even if he was, coaching is mostly fungible, Valancuinas (or however it's spelled) is unproven, Bargnani isn't playing good defense, he's playing good defense for Bargnani, and Nash's presence wouldn't make the defensive situation any better.

$20 million in cap space isn't enough. That's not enough to sign two max-deal players, let alone the three the Raptors need. The draft pick will be valuable, but Colangelo will have to turn it into an all-star for it to matter much. Another DeRozan or Davis isn't going to change the team's fortunes.

I think it's likely the Raptors will be a losing franchise for at least the next 2 years and possibly a great deal more than that.

[mcHAPPY]

This is a fatal dose of glass-half-full.

The Raptors don't really have many "effective role players", Casey isn't a "genius", and even if he was, coaching is mostly fungible, Valancuinas (or however it's spelled) is unproven, Bargnani isn't playing good defense, he's playing good defense for Bargnani, and Nash's presence wouldn't make the defensive situation any better.

$20 million in cap space isn't enough. That's not enough to sign two max-deal players, let alone the three the Raptors need. The draft pick will be valuable, but Colangelo will have to turn it into an all-star for it to matter much. Another DeRozan or Davis isn't going to change the team's fortunes.

I think it's likely the Raptors will be a losing franchise for at least the next 2 years and possibly a great deal more than that.

This is a fatal does of why-should-I-bother-to-keep-trying?

Effective role players: Kleiza, JJ, Amir, Gray. By the way, when I say effective role players, I am referring to bench players. Kleiza, JJ, Amir, and Gray is a very effective bench in my opinion.

Casey might not be genius but Dirk says they wouldn't have won without him and he did set up a system to shut down Wade AND LeBron. If that is not genius then it is at the very least extremely intelligent.

Valanciunas is as unproven as any draft pick. Considering in two games against AK47 and Kristic he put up 11.5 points and 8.5 rebounds as a 19 year old, I think his chances fair very well for success at the NBA level.

The Raptors, known as the worst defensive team in the league the last 2 seasons, have evolved in to an average defensive team with predominantly the same players. The Raps are 14th in Opp/PPG and 18th in defensive rating. Regardless of whether or not Bargnani is a great defensive player as that is a discussion for another thread, the team has played better defense with him on the court than off and his opp/PER in 13 games this season is a very impressive 10.5. This, of course, forgets he was 5th in scoring in the entire league in the games he played.

As for Nash's presence not making the defense any better, how so? Phoenix is a much better defensive team with Nash on the floor than off (103.5 points per 100 possessions on versus 110.3 off). His individual opponents PER is 13.3 which is very impressive considering Rondo's is 11.8, Paul's is 15.2, and Calderon's is 17.5 (all stats from 82games.com). Nash is not a stellar defender by any stretch but he is no worse than Calderon - and possibly better.

How is it so the Raptors need three max players? How is that working out in New York? Memphis? Of course there are examples of it working out as well, Miami for example, however there is no guarantee is my only point.

$20M is not enough? That depends on what you do with it. If you are talking strictly free agency, I agree. However salary cap space is for much more than free agency - trades?

Another DeRozan or Davis isn't going to change the team's fortunes - now that is something I can agree with.


Considering Colangelo has taken two different teams and had a 20-plus win differential from one season to the next, I am going to take him at his word when he says they will hit the ground running next season (but I am also a BC-fanboy). I appreciate the negativity and understand its root but given the amount of flexibility the team has over the next 5 months, I don't think it can be argued strongly for or against what the next 2 years hold. However blanket negative statements with nothing behind them but negative opinions is hardly grounds for a doom and gloom prophecy with any merit.

[ceez]

Totally agree, I've been saying this for the past 2 years.

[Puffer]

This is a fatal does of why-should-I-bother-to-keep-trying?

Effective role players: Kleiza, JJ, Amir, Gray. By the way, when I say effective role players, I am referring to bench players. Kleiza, JJ, Amir, and Gray is a very effective bench in my opinion.

Casey might not be genius but Dirk says they wouldn't have won without him and he did set up a system to shut down Wade AND LeBron. If that is not genius then it is at the very least extremely intelligent.

Valanciunas is as unproven as any draft pick. Considering in two games against AK47 and Kristic he put up 11.5 points and 8.5 rebounds as a 19 year old, I think his chances fair very well for success at the NBA level.

The Raptors, known as the worst defensive team in the league the last 2 seasons, have evolved in to an average defensive team with predominantly the same players. The Raps are 14th in Opp/PPG and 18th in defensive rating. Regardless of whether or not Bargnani is a great defensive player as that is a discussion for another thread, the team has played better defense with him on the court than off and his opp/PER in 13 games this season is a very impressive 10.5. This, of course, forgets he was 5th in scoring in the entire league in the games he played.

As for Nash's presence not making the defense any better, how so? Phoenix is a much better defensive team with Nash on the floor than off (103.5 points per 100 possessions on versus 110.3 off). His individual opponents PER is 13.3 which is very impressive considering Rondo's is 11.8, Paul's is 15.2, and Calderon's is 17.5 (all stats from 82games.com). Nash is not a stellar defender by any stretch but he is no worse than Calderon - and possibly better.

How is it so the Raptors need three max players? How is that working out in New York? Memphis? Of course there are examples of it working out as well, Miami for example, however there is no guarantee is my only point.

$20M is not enough? That depends on what you do with it. If you are talking strictly free agency, I agree. However salary cap space is for much more than free agency - trades?

Another DeRozan or Davis isn't going to change the team's fortunes - now that is something I can agree with.


Considering Colangelo has taken two different teams and had a 20-plus win differential from one season to the next, I am going to take him at his word when he says they will hit the ground running next season (but I am also a BC-fanboy). I appreciate the negativity and understand its root but given the amount of flexibility the team has over the next 5 months, I don't think it can be argued strongly for or against what the next 2 years hold. However blanket negative statements with nothing behind them but negative opinions is hardly grounds for a doom and gloom prophecy with any merit.

+1

[Holy Craptors]

As for going to win a ring, he says he would be open to going to a situation where he could go to the finals in 2-3 years. What better way to end the career than making the team in your home country a contender with another Canadian young PG there to mentor.

Good point! If he does make it to the Raptors, even a slight improvement to their record would solidify his legacy as a Canadian sports hero.

[Maleko]

This is a fatal does of why-should-I-bother-to-keep-trying?

Effective role players: Kleiza, JJ, Amir, Gray. By the way, when I say effective role players, I am referring to bench players. Kleiza, JJ, Amir, and Gray is a very effective bench in my opinion.

Casey might not be genius but Dirk says they wouldn't have won without him and he did set up a system to shut down Wade AND LeBron. If that is not genius then it is at the very least extremely intelligent.

Valanciunas is as unproven as any draft pick. Considering in two games against AK47 and Kristic he put up 11.5 points and 8.5 rebounds as a 19 year old, I think his chances fair very well for success at the NBA level.

The Raptors, known as the worst defensive team in the league the last 2 seasons, have evolved in to an average defensive team with predominantly the same players. The Raps are 14th in Opp/PPG and 18th in defensive rating. Regardless of whether or not Bargnani is a great defensive player as that is a discussion for another thread, the team has played better defense with him on the court than off and his opp/PER in 13 games this season is a very impressive 10.5. This, of course, forgets he was 5th in scoring in the entire league in the games he played.

As for Nash's presence not making the defense any better, how so? Phoenix is a much better defensive team with Nash on the floor than off (103.5 points per 100 possessions on versus 110.3 off). His individual opponents PER is 13.3 which is very impressive considering Rondo's is 11.8, Paul's is 15.2, and Calderon's is 17.5 (all stats from 82games.com). Nash is not a stellar defender by any stretch but he is no worse than Calderon - and possibly better.

How is it so the Raptors need three max players? How is that working out in New York? Memphis? Of course there are examples of it working out as well, Miami for example, however there is no guarantee is my only point.

$20M is not enough? That depends on what you do with it. If you are talking strictly free agency, I agree. However salary cap space is for much more than free agency - trades?

Another DeRozan or Davis isn't going to change the team's fortunes - now that is something I can agree with.


Considering Colangelo has taken two different teams and had a 20-plus win differential from one season to the next, I am going to take him at his word when he says they will hit the ground running next season (but I am also a BC-fanboy). I appreciate the negativity and understand its root but given the amount of flexibility the team has over the next 5 months, I don't think it can be argued strongly for or against what the next 2 years hold. However blanket negative statements with nothing behind them but negative opinions is hardly grounds for a doom and gloom prophecy with any merit.

I was going to respond to his post and thought why waste my time educating him with the facts and say things I shouldn't. Thanks Matt for summarizing and taking the time to respond in how I was too lazy to, and probably smart to leave out the things I shouldn't say.

[RaptorsFan4Life]

Kabongo will most likely stay another year if he's not projected to be in the lottery.

[Brandon]

This is a fatal does of why-should-I-bother-to-keep-trying?

Effective role players: Kleiza, JJ, Amir, Gray. By the way, when I say effective role players, I am referring to bench players. Kleiza, JJ, Amir, and Gray is a very effective bench in my opinion.

Casey might not be genius but Dirk says they wouldn't have won without him and he did set up a system to shut down Wade AND LeBron. If that is not genius then it is at the very least extremely intelligent.

Valanciunas is as unproven as any draft pick. Considering in two games against AK47 and Kristic he put up 11.5 points and 8.5 rebounds as a 19 year old, I think his chances fair very well for success at the NBA level.

The Raptors, known as the worst defensive team in the league the last 2 seasons, have evolved in to an average defensive team with predominantly the same players. The Raps are 14th in Opp/PPG and 18th in defensive rating. Regardless of whether or not Bargnani is a great defensive player as that is a discussion for another thread, the team has played better defense with him on the court than off and his opp/PER in 13 games this season is a very impressive 10.5. This, of course, forgets he was 5th in scoring in the entire league in the games he played.

As for Nash's presence not making the defense any better, how so? Phoenix is a much better defensive team with Nash on the floor than off (103.5 points per 100 possessions on versus 110.3 off). His individual opponents PER is 13.3 which is very impressive considering Rondo's is 11.8, Paul's is 15.2, and Calderon's is 17.5 (all stats from 82games.com). Nash is not a stellar defender by any stretch but he is no worse than Calderon - and possibly better.

How is it so the Raptors need three max players? How is that working out in New York? Memphis? Of course there are examples of it working out as well, Miami for example, however there is no guarantee is my only point.

$20M is not enough? That depends on what you do with it. If you are talking strictly free agency, I agree. However salary cap space is for much more than free agency - trades?

Another DeRozan or Davis isn't going to change the team's fortunes - now that is something I can agree with.


Considering Colangelo has taken two different teams and had a 20-plus win differential from one season to the next, I am going to take him at his word when he says they will hit the ground running next season (but I am also a BC-fanboy). I appreciate the negativity and understand its root but given the amount of flexibility the team has over the next 5 months, I don't think it can be argued strongly for or against what the next 2 years hold. However blanket negative statements with nothing behind them but negative opinions is hardly grounds for a doom and gloom prophecy with any merit.

You're not using statistics from this short season are you?

History shows that badly-run franchises tend to lose consistently while well-run franchises tend to win consistently. The Raptors have been a badly-run franchise from the beginning. Maybe Rogers/Bell will make the difference, but based on the Jays, I doubt it.

[mcHAPPY]

Kabongo will most likely stay another year if he's not projected to be in the lottery.

They said the same thing about Cory Joseph last year.

If a team tells him they will take him, I think he declares. Even if he is taken 25th, it is still around $2.2M guaranteed. Plus it does not appear Barnes is a fan - *disclaimer - total speculation on my part. Barnes has been hard on him but many good coaches are hard on the players they don't feel are performing to ability, so who knows.*

[mcHAPPY]

You're not using statistics from this short season are you?

History shows that badly-run franchises tend to lose consistently while well-run franchises tend to win consistently. The Raptors have been a badly-run franchise from the beginning. Maybe Rogers/Bell will make the difference, but based on the Jays, I doubt it.

Of course. What other stats would one use? This short season is also 33 games in with an average of 3.9 games per week.

History also shows that badly run franchises often go through a good steak at some point - deserved or not. History also shows that badly run franchises can also turn it around. History also shows us that the Raptors have never before gone through a proper rebuild as teams were put together with making the playoffs the main goal.

[Miekenstien]

You're not using statistics from this short season are you?

History shows that badly-run franchises tend to lose consistently while well-run franchises tend to win consistently. The Raptors have been a badly-run franchise from the beginning. Maybe Rogers/Bell will make the difference, but based on the Jays, I doubt it.

history shows that this year the lakers, or celtics will have the biggest chance to win the championship so with your reasoning should all other teams just not play?

[Miekenstien]

They said the same thing about Cory Joseph last year.

If a team tells him they will take him, I think he declares. Even if he is taken 25th, it is still around $2.2M guaranteed. Plus it does not appear Barnes is a fan - *disclaimer - total speculation on my part. Barnes has been hard on him but many good coaches are hard on the players they don't feel are performing to ability, so who knows.*

i agree that if he gets a promise of being drafted with a guaranteed contract he would declare. a freak accident in college ball could ruin these players careers and potential earnings. i was very surprised with barnes and jones not declaring last year even with the lockout looming. they would of had to have known it would end and they would get paid.

[RaptorsFan4Life]

They said the same thing about Cory Joseph last year.

If a team tells him they will take him, I think he declares. Even if he is taken 25th, it is still around $2.2M guaranteed. Plus it does not appear Barnes is a fan - *disclaimer - total speculation on my part. Barnes has been hard on him but many good coaches are hard on the players they don't feel are performing to ability, so who knows.*

He has more potential and talent than Joseph. Plus, Joseph knew he'd be the backup once Kabongo got there...

[Papa Burgundy]

The Raptors need a leader ... Myck could absolutely work himself into that role with the team. And if he had Nash as a mentor and transition piece? Couldn't be scripted any better.

We might be in a bit of a squeeze with our first pick likely being too high for Myck, and our 2nd pick being too low - but that's why BC gets paid the big bucks ... I agree we have lots of solid assets, some of which could be used to facilitate a move like that.

All of the points are very true, fact based, and make a lot of sense ... too bad some posters are lumping the thread in with all the people who say, "Nash should come here ... and Myck ... Canadian boner" ... Very strong case for how it may happen, even if it does contain a lot of things that would have to play out a certain way ... crazier things happen every day.

One closing element to why Nash may come ... kind of touched on in some of the points ... he would have FUUUUUN! There is the whole 'Canadian icon in Canada aspect', but I mean on the court. As a pure playmaker, and highlight reel maker ... Nash would have some serious targets to hit with Bargs and Jonas in pick and roll/pick and pop ... Demar, JJ, Amir streaking down the lanes in a fast break ... another high draft pick too, with fresh legs ... I think the last 2 years in Phoenix have been a bit of a mental drain, and the game simply can't be as much fun to play without some dogs to run with.

[mcHAPPY]

The Raptors need a leader ... Myck could absolutely work himself into that role with the team. And if he had Nash as a mentor and transition piece? Couldn't be scripted any better.

We might be in a bit of a squeeze with our first pick likely being too high for Myck, and our 2nd pick being too low - but that's why BC gets paid the big bucks ... I agree we have lots of solid assets, some of which could be used to facilitate a move like that.

All of the points are very true, fact based, and make a lot of sense ... too bad some posters are lumping the thread in with all the people who say, "Nash should come here ... and Myck ... Canadian boner" ... Very strong case for how it may happen, even if it does contain a lot of things that would have to play out a certain way ... crazier things happen every day.

One closing element to why Nash may come ... kind of touched on in some of the points ... he would have FUUUUUN! There is the whole 'Canadian icon in Canada aspect', but I mean on the court. As a pure playmaker, and highlight reel maker ... Nash would have some serious targets to hit with Bargs and Jonas in pick and roll/pick and pop ... Demar, JJ, Amir streaking down the lanes in a fast break ... another high draft pick too, with fresh legs ... I think the last 2 years in Phoenix have been a bit of a mental drain, and the game simply can't be as much fun to play without some dogs to run with.

Yes, I don't think I gave this enough attention originally. His game is heavily based on the pick and roll and what great options with JV and AB.