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Bargnani coming back, good or bad for draft position?

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  • #16
    Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I personally don't think winning or losing "cultures" are permanently entrenched in players' minds from one season to the next. I mean, look at the way this team competes this year compared to last year....it's night and day.

    Or look at the Clippers over the past 30 years compared to this season.

    Or look at the TWolves this season.

    If the Raptors lose a lot of games, and end up with a top 3 pick this year, I highly doubt that will have any effect on the players' psyche going into next season. There will still be a ton of internal optimism this summer, and everyone associated with the team will have their sights [realistically] set on the post-season.

    Players aren't robots. They're perfectly capable of mentally separating one season from the next.
    Look at the talent they received the next year?! CP3, Billups, Butler on L.A! Rubio, Derrick Williams on Minnesota! The talent level from their last year to the next has been night and day. We could be on the same road.

    Than they should be even better mentally with all of the full accommodations this off-season with all the new talent, and off-season to work with. Talent has been a lack for this team, and with that being addressed this off-season, than maybe a more win competitive nature would instill into the minds of the team.

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    • #17
      Depends on perspective:

      If you are a tanker - bad.

      If you are hoping for as many wins as possible - good.

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      • #18
        CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
        The one part about the whole "build a winning culture" and "develop a chemistry" argument that baffles me, is that probably half the current roster won't be on the Raptors team next year and even fewer are likely part of the long-term core.

        This year the team sucks and is not going to win the Championship. So, once that fact has sunk in, it's time to look ahead to next season and beyond. Making sure our 1st round draft pick is the highest possible and returns the best possible player to fit on next year's team and become part of the future long-term core, should be the highest priority. I don't care if you call it "tanking" or "smart" or "strategic planning" or "reality", but with winning the championship out of grasp this year, making next year's team the best team possible is (or should be) the primary goal, plain and simple.
        It's already been discussed that they have their core pieces coming in next year. Demar, JJ, Amir, Ed, Bargnani, Valanciunas. They rented pieces so that's a given. No matter how low they are in the lottery from 1-14, we are going to bring in NBA-ready talent and contribution for next season.

        As a player myself, I think trying to win games is the reason you play basketball for, even if you don't have the talent, you wanna win games, you wanna compete, and that's a way probably all players approach the game.
        I'm all for the tank nation, as long as this team tries to compete night in and night out.

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        • #19
          RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
          Look at the talent they received the next year?! CP3, Billups, Butler on L.A! Rubio, Derrick Williams on Minnesota! The talent level from their last year to the next has been night and day. We could be on the same road.

          Than they should be even better mentally with all of the full accommodations this off-season with all the new talent, and off-season to work with. Talent has been a lack for this team, and with that being addressed this off-season, than maybe a more win competitive nature would instill into the minds of the team.
          That's exactly my point. It's talent level that makes the biggest difference, not the idea of a losing mentality.

          What's the best way to improve on talent? Draft higher.

          How do you draft higher? Lose games.

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          • #20
            RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
            It's already been discussed that they have their core pieces coming in next year. Demar, JJ, Amir, Ed, Bargnani, Valanciunas. They rented pieces so that's a given. No matter how low they are in the lottery from 1-14, we are going to bring in NBA-ready talent and contribution for next season.

            As a player myself, I think trying to win games is the reason you play basketball for, even if you don't have the talent, you wanna win games, you wanna compete, and that's a way probably all players approach the game.
            I'm all for the tank nation, as long as this team tries to compete night in and night out.
            It should be pointed out that those who are proponents of "tanking" aren't expecting the players to purposely lose games. The players are expected to give maximum effort every minute they're on the court.

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            • #21
              I think we will win 10 or 11 more games. There are 11 games left with teams that are below our record or around our record. I think if we count on winning all those games, which we won't, it should make up for the team that we upset. I think the Raptors end up 23-43 we will be drafting from 5-7.

              Games left:

              at Detriot ...Win
              Bucks.... Win
              at Cleveland... Win
              at Nets ... Win
              at Memphis...Lose
              at Bobcats ....Win
              at NY...Lose
              Chicago...Lose
              NY...Lose
              at Bulls...Lose
              Orlando...Lose
              Denver....Lose
              Heat...Lose
              Wizards...Win
              Bobcats...Win
              atPhilly... Lose
              Cavs...Win
              at Thunder...lose
              at Indy...lose
              Philly...lose
              Boston...lose
              at Hawks...lose
              Hawks...lose
              at Heat...lose
              at Detroit...win
              at Bucks...win
              Nets...win

              Okay, maybe we win more than 11. That seems pretty harsh.
              Last edited by saints91; Thu Mar 8, 2012, 01:34 PM.

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              • #22
                RaptorReuben wrote: View Post
                It's already been discussed that they have their core pieces coming in next year. Demar, JJ, Amir, Ed, Bargnani, Valanciunas. They rented pieces so that's a given. No matter how low they are in the lottery from 1-14, we are going to bring in NBA-ready talent and contribution for next season.

                As a player myself, I think trying to win games is the reason you play basketball for, even if you don't have the talent, you wanna win games, you wanna compete, and that's a way probably all players approach the game.
                I'm all for the tank nation, as long as this team tries to compete night in and night out.
                Don't get me wrong, I want the team to compete too. Win or lose, if a player doesn't come to play, I'd rather ship them out (look no further than the Wizards or Bynum last night - talented, but heads not in the game).

                My point was that the "building a winning culture" craze is an oxymoron when it comes to a team struggling to win 20 games and on the outside of the playoffs looking in. That's something Dr. Phil would tell a loser to get him to step back from the ledge. Sounds nice and makes you smile and reach for your teddy bear, but it's pure BS.

                Talent (both players and coaches) breeds winning, and winning breeds winning. Being a bad team with a "winning culture" is no way to attract star free agents. Building a talented young core, winning games in a sustainable fashion and making other teams and reporters pay attention to the team... that is how you instill a true winning culture in a franchise and fan base.

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                • #23
                  saints91 wrote: View Post
                  I think we will win 10 or 11 more games. There are 11 games left with teams that are below our record or around our record. I think if we count on winning all those games, which we won't, it should make up for the team that we upset. I think the Raptors end up 23-43 we will be drafting from 5-7.

                  Games left:

                  at Detriot ...Win
                  Bucks.... Win
                  at Cleveland... Win
                  at Nets ... Win
                  at Memphis...Lose
                  at Bobcats ....Win
                  at NY...Lose
                  Chicago...Lose
                  NY...Lose
                  at Bulls...Lose
                  Orlando...Lose
                  Denver....Lose
                  Heat...Lose
                  Wizards...Win
                  Bobcats...Win
                  atPhilly... Lose
                  Cavs...Win
                  at Thunder...lose
                  at Indy...lose
                  Philly...lose
                  Boston...lose
                  at Hawks...lose
                  Hawks...lose
                  at Heat...lose
                  at Detroit...win
                  at Bucks...win
                  Nets...win

                  Okay, maybe we win more than 11. That seems pretty harsh.
                  11 games seems reasonable.

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                  • #24
                    I'd prefer to see him rest and make sure he is healthy for next season. If the same injury happens for the third time in one season it's just stupid. Also there is more long term benefit to the team giving the playing time to Amir and Ed.

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                    • #25
                      j bean wrote: View Post
                      I'd prefer to see him rest and make sure he is healthy for next season. If the same injury happens for the third time in one season it's just stupid. Also there is more long term benefit to the team giving the playing time to Amir and Ed.
                      This makes sense if one believes the "new Bargnani" is here to stay permanently. But if management is still hoping to gauge Bargnani's passion to defense/rebounding, then they'll need to see him play more games.
                      Last edited by Nilanka; Thu Mar 8, 2012, 03:06 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Im in the tank camp. Where we are now, winning brings us absolutely no benefit other than the players being able to say "Well at least we aren't the absolute worst team in the league". Woo hooo. I dont buy that winning culture crap. When we start winning because we have a Lebron James and a talented crew around them, thats the start of an actual winning culture, not just beating really bad teams sometimes and hanging tough but losing to good teams. That's a culture of mediocrity. Welcome to the Toronto Maple Raptors?

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                        • #27
                          Nilanka wrote: View Post
                          That's exactly my point. It's talent level that makes the biggest difference, not the idea of a losing mentality.

                          What's the best way to improve on talent? Draft higher.

                          How do you draft higher? Lose games.
                          All well and good, but some of the fans want to see wins now despite the consequences. Not every member of the fan base is as dedicated to winning a championships as Tank Nation. Like running with scissors - oodles of FUN, FUN, FUN, WOW; worry about the regrets later! It's the culture of the fan base than needs changing even more so than the team.

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                          • #28
                            If your goal is a championship, you're in for a lifetime of disappointment. If the league was totally fair, we might expect to win a championship once every 30 years. Since the league isn't fair, once every 60 years might be more reasonable.

                            My standards are: I want a fun, competitive team. What matters is the journey, not the destination.

                            That said, objectively speaking, I hope the Raptors lose every single game for the rest of the season, except the one I happen to be watching: that one, I want them to win.

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                            • #29
                              Draft wrote: View Post
                              All well and good, but some of the fans want to see wins now despite the consequences. Not every member of the fan base is as dedicated to winning a championships as Tank Nation. Like running with scissors - oodles of FUN, FUN, FUN, WOW; worry about the regrets later! It's the culture of the fan base than needs changing even more so than the team.

                              malefax wrote: View Post
                              If your goal is a championship, you're in for a lifetime of disappointment. If the league was totally fair, we might expect to win a championship once every 30 years. Since the league isn't fair, once every 60 years might be more reasonable.

                              My standards are: I want a fun, competitive team. What matters is the journey, not the destination.

                              That said, objectively speaking, I hope the Raptors lose every single game for the rest of the season, except the one I happen to be watching: that one, I want them to win.
                              Why cheer for a team if you don't care whether or not they win a championship? What exactly are you cheering for? The sport? The thrill of competition? The hometown team? What exactly is your support and cheering urging them towards, mediocrity?

                              I think having a fan base that is content with a hardworking, competitive, middle-of-the-pack team is the problem with Toronto teams, be it the Raptors or Leafs. It's about time we fans start demanding results, not just competitiveness and corportate profitability.

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                              • #30
                                "Culture" is a nebulous term at best. What is making a team with so much dubious talent having their share of wins is the defensive system and the urgings of the coaching staff to be continuosly playing hard and difficult on the opposing team. If that is changing the culture then so be it. But this is not something which can be turned on and off. Hopefully its here for the long term. And the person doing the conducting (Casey) does not look like a someone who is coaching to lose. Very difficult for coaches and players for the most part to be purposefully losing games....not in their dna.

                                BC on the other hand I feel had other plans by the roster he put together. The only way the "tank" will be reinstituted is by BC making some subtractions by Mar. 15 eg the trades of Calderon and Barbosa at the very least. That should put the team back to it's start of the year projections.

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