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Bargnani coming back, good or bad for draft position?

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  • #31
    CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Why cheer for a team if you don't care whether or not they win a championship? What exactly are you cheering for? The sport? The thrill of competition? The hometown team? What exactly is your support and cheering urging them towards, mediocrity?

    I think having a fan base that is content with a hardworking, competitive, middle-of-the-pack team is the problem with Toronto teams, be it the Raptors or Leafs. It's about time we fans start demanding results, not just competitiveness and corportate profitability.
    Retaining talent is the key here. You cannot draft big and lose them on a free.

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    • #32
      CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
      Why cheer for a team if you don't care whether or not they win a championship? What exactly are you cheering for? The sport? The thrill of competition? The hometown team? What exactly is your support and cheering urging them towards, mediocrity?

      I think having a fan base that is content with a hardworking, competitive, middle-of-the-pack team is the problem with Toronto teams, be it the Raptors or Leafs. It's about time we fans start demanding results, not just competitiveness and corportate profitability.
      +1. I can't speak for the Leafs (I hate the Leafs) but I am not sure why Raptor fans shouldn't expect a team that is a contender for stretches of time. I am old enough to remember when Dallas was one of the worst franchises in the NBA and now it's a top tier destination. Remember when the Bulls couldn't get a worn out shoe to take their free agent money? It was like 5 years ago.... This idea that Toronto can't compete is nonsense. Yeah, you need to get lucky but you also need committed and dedicated ownership with a focus on winning and a smart and capable management team. This organization hasn't had either one in a decade. Maybe ever.

      Instead of making excuses like: ooh, the NBA isn't fair, Toronto's cold, players don't like Canada, the NBA is a conspiracy, etc.; the onus needs to be on ownership and management to get results. Raptor fans are far too forgiving of GMs and owners and far too hard on guys who are the 10th man on the roster...
      Last edited by slaw; Thu Mar 8, 2012, 06:32 PM.

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      • #33
        slaw wrote: View Post
        Guess it depends what the goal is. If the goal is to have a team for next year (and the next 3) that is good enough to fight for the 6-8 seed then we should be all for adding vets to the current roster to put this team into that position. Maybe you capture lightning in a bottle one year and find yourself in the second round. If the goal is to turn this into a top 4 team in the Conference with a shot at the ECF for 3-4 years running, then management needs to be patient and build up the skill level of this team through the draft and by bringing in high-ceiling younger players.

        Maybe I am underestimating the talent on this roster but I just see this team as being miles and miles miles away from being an ECF contender. I'm in no hurry to make the playoffs as an 8th seed if, by doing so, you sacrifice the future (i.e. 2006 offseason).
        Im not saying that's the goal, I'm saying that'a a step in the right direction, because with the talent and possibly good health we have talent to make a playoff seed.

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        • #34
          I don't know if this has been said, but last year it was the number 9 or 10 spot that got the number one pick. If you remember, the clippers traded it for mo williams hahaha. stupid clippers. anyway, there's always a chance we get the #1 pick at 6 or 7 worst. i'd rather see these guys start winning that try to tank. losing is only good for so long and i think they just need to win

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          • #35
            Bargs coming is only a good thing, I mean we don't know how good this team really is with him? How can we evaluate this team properly without its best player?

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            • #36
              I thought about this long and hard. My take on it is that it is only a good thing. He needs to play and to get back to where he was. Although only 26, he needs another year to grow. As for the draft position, even without Bargs, I've seen the mock-boards as having the Raps as high as 7th. It's a pipe-dream for those who think that Bargs coming back is bad because it affects our top-5 position. I predicted this team to win 20 games at the beginning of the season. However, I think they will eclipse that. The silver lining? Well, the top portion of this draft is loaded with 4's (some 3's). We need to draft a PG badly and falling into the double-digits may get us that PG that the Raps covet. Barg's return is not bad at all. He needs to be acclimated to the system again. He was rushed into action last time and I hope that never happens again. I can't believe I'm saying this (as a former Bargs hater) but I look forward to his return.

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              • #37
                Bargnani returning is bad for our draft position, I dont think it takes a genius to figure that out.
                "Defense wins championships."

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                • #38
                  Nilanka wrote: View Post
                  That's exactly my point. It's talent level that makes the biggest difference, not the idea of a losing mentality.

                  What's the best way to improve on talent? Draft higher.

                  How do you draft higher? Lose games.
                  When talking about talent level, I agree that we don't have the talent to win a championship. But I think the argument can be made that the same team next year with a healthy bargnani, and a full training camp under Casey (now that we are one of the best defensive teams in the league) could make the playoffs.

                  What made the biggest difference in our team? Not free agents, not a draft pick, a change in identity instigated by a new coach, people didnt think we had the personnel to play good defensively, but that was proven to be untrue.

                  The way I have seen us compete the last few games, I feel like we are close, adding a healthy bargnani to a team like this that gives it all they can could be enough to take us over the hump.

                  That being said, I would like to see us draft as high as possible, as I don't see us being able to recover this year. Look for Casey and Colangelo to "bring Bargnani back slowly" lol.
                  "Defense wins championships."

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                  • #39
                    Raptorsss wrote: View Post
                    Bargs coming is only a good thing, I mean we don't know how good this team really is with him? How can we evaluate this team properly without its best player?
                    I agree.

                    They dont have to make the playoffs, but i think they need to show people how good they can be with a complete, healthy core. They should put a string of wins together and show that they can mesh well, play with each other with chemistry. I think this will also be helpful in attracting Free agents. I think its highly important for free agents to see that they are coming to a team that is already stable, and one to three moves away from seriously competing. IMO, this summer will be the busiest and most crucial summer not just for BC but for the whole team.

                    Will this affect the draft? Probably not. the current lowly teams are not moving up anyways, so why try and compete with them.

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                    • #40
                      SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                      When talking about talent level, I agree that we don't have the talent to win a championship. But I think the argument can be made that the same team next year with a healthy bargnani, and a full training camp under Casey (now that we are one of the best defensive teams in the league) could make the playoffs.

                      What made the biggest difference in our team? Not free agents, not a draft pick, a change in identity instigated by a new coach, people didnt think we had the personnel to play good defensively, but that was proven to be untrue.

                      The way I have seen us compete the last few games, I feel like we are close, adding a healthy bargnani to a team like this that gives it all they can could be enough to take us over the hump.

                      That being said, I would like to see us draft as high as possible, as I don't see us being able to recover this year. Look for Casey and Colangelo to "bring Bargnani back slowly" lol.
                      I agree that we have a decent shot at the playoffs next season (assuming most of this year's "key pieces" remain), but just how good can that team be? Are we talking about a team capable of winning 55+ games and one day being a title contender? Or are we talking about a 45 win team, with a ceiling as a 6th seed?

                      I'm thinking the latter, which is why talent infusion is desperately needed. Otherwise, we'll see this team make the playoffs for 2-3 years as a 6-8 seed, get bounced in the 1st or 2nd round, and we'd be back here looking for talent infusion without any high draft picks to work with in 2015.

                      It's not too early for us to be thinking about what this team needs to look like in 3-5 years.

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                      • #41
                        I'm not sure why some "posters" think it's wrong to make the playoffs next year... "we should be patient"

                        I don't think it's right to assume that we go from a non-playoff team to a top 4 contender because we were in the top end of the lottery for 3 years in a row. The natural progression would be to go to the playoffs as a sixth, seventh or eighth seed and build on that. Climb up in the ranks over the next 3 years. As long as we are scouting well, we should be able to find contributing players at any draft spot. San Antonio does a great jobs of finding guys that work with their system.

                        If we have 2 good prospect rookies (Jonas, 2012 rookie), and 4 core guys under the age of 24 (DeMar, Ed, Amir, JJ), and a borderline all-star (Andrea who is 26), then why not go out and get players like Batum (my preference), Chandler, or Lee to add to that core. If we make the playoffs we still have a young core, that is going grow and get better.

                        I agree with not signing a player like Nash or Allen, I prefer to sign a player that will be in the league in 5 years when we are consistently contending.

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                        • #42
                          Nilanka wrote: View Post
                          I agree that we have a decent shot at the playoffs next season (assuming most of this year's "key pieces" remain), but just how good can that team be? Are we talking about a team capable of winning 55+ games and one day being a title contender? Or are we talking about a 45 win team, with a ceiling as a 6th seed?

                          I'm thinking the latter, which is why talent infusion is desperately needed. Otherwise, we'll see this team make the playoffs for 2-3 years as a 6-8 seed, get bounced in the 1st or 2nd round, and we'd be back here looking for talent infusion without any high draft picks to work with in 2015.

                          It's not too early for us to be thinking about what this team needs to look like in 3-5 years.
                          Partly agree. If this team makes the playoffs next season, ill be elated. But it shouldnt stop there and i dont think it will stop there. BC should continue building this team into a contender, and thats pretty much the goal of any GM anyways. Ive posted earlier that the offseason is crucial to the Raps because i believe this is their best shot to start being a contender. a highly touted rookie, a high draft pick and cap space, this is where it should start. each season they go deeper into the playoffs, the more FAs will want to come here and play. Its not about taxes, the weather, its about winning.

                          The only part i dont agree with is the 3-5 years outlook. Starting next season, i would like the Raptors to be a contender in the next 2-3 years.

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                          • #43
                            If we all agree the Raptors will be improved next season, then the 2012 draft will be the highest draft pick we have for the foreseeable future. We can't mess it up by winning extra games this year. Because we currently don't have the talent to eventually lead us to the conference finals.

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                            • #44
                              saints91 wrote: View Post
                              I'm not sure why some "posters" think it's wrong to make the playoffs next year... "we should be patient"
                              I don't think anyone is suggesting it's wrong to make the playoffs next year. But it's irresponsible if we do so at the expense of the future.

                              You're right about the progression of a team. We'd have to squeak into the playoffs, and take our lumps for a year or 2 before we can realistically expect to take the next step as an elite team.

                              But we need elite talent to take that step too....something we currently don't have. This summer seems like the most likely opportunity to obtain that elite talent.

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                              • #45
                                Nilanka wrote: View Post
                                I don't think anyone is suggesting it's wrong to make the playoffs next year. But it's irresponsible if we do so at the expense of the future.

                                You're right about the progression of a team. We'd have to squeak into the playoffs, and take our lumps for a year or 2 before we can realistically expect to take the next step as an elite team.

                                But we need elite talent to take that step too....something we currently don't have. This summer seems like the most likely opportunity to obtain that elite talent.
                                I absolutely agree with you on this one.

                                In response to saints91, I think those "posters" mean that barely making the playoffs next season should not be the team's end goal to get excited about. Instead, it should be a mandatory, bare minimum measure of building success, with a much loftier goal in mind for the following 2-5 seasons.

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