Lin to the Raptors a good idea? Lin Raptors Plan B? (168)

[Nilanka]

Over an 82 game schedule, beating these guys by .5 TOPG would result in an extra 41 TO's. Thats quite a few if you ask me.

I acknowledged that it's a lot of turnovers.

But considering Lin's relative inexperience, combined with very little practice time afforded last year (in a condensed schedule), it's not far-fetched to assume he'll cut down his turnovers as his career progresses.

[NoPropsneeded]

Sessions when he played for the cavs was underrated and a lot of people, including some of the guys here on RR, criticized him as a PG. Now that he's in the spot light he's getting all the attention and everyone's saying what a great pickup he was. If we let go of bayless the same thing will happen and we'll regret it

[NoPropsneeded]

You are absolutely right Apollo. If JB had not been injured we would have gotten a better idea of how good he can be. Just look at Ramon Sessions, Bayless is basically a bigger, more athletic, and better shooting version of Sessions. Who wouldn't want that? he also loves the city and is willing to do whatever it takes to help us win.

[Apollo]

I think they're pretty comparable at this point. When Bayless has been given the freedom Lin has he's produced as well and in similar fashion. If we're going to look at average production per dollar I think you're going to find far more value in Bayless.

The problem is that neither is the solid, reliable, prototypical PG I want to see leading a team into the playoffs. Maybe they evolve into it, I don't know but if I'm going with this type of PG I don't want him as my starter and so I don't pay starter dollars period.

[NoPropsneeded]

Bayless has all the tools to be much better than Lin. Lin is overhyped nothing more

[Nilanka]

No doubt and people are suggesting the Raptors should give him $20M in the final two years on a contract. Two full MLE years in the beginning of the contract. All this based on 64 career games after he went undrafted and was cut like four times. Where are all the Lin supporters going to be in three years if the Raptors do this bone head deal? Pushing him and Colangelo under the bus is my guess.

Personally, I don't want Colangelo to overspend on Lin either. I wasn't trying to make any claims about Lin's monetary value. I was just saying that I think he'll be a good PG in this league, and a better one than Bayless.

[Joey]

Yes, 4.5 turnovers is a lot, but is it that far ahead of Deron Williams' 4.0, or John Wall's 3.9, or Kevin Durant's 3.8?

Over an 82 game schedule, beating these guys by .5 TOPG would result in an extra 41 TO's. Thats quite a few if you ask me.

And it's a lot less than the "10" you quoted (hence the exaggeration).

Sorry, when I said 10 Turnovers, I meant to say 8 (Feb 6th), 8 (Feb 14th), 9 (Feb 17th), 7 (Feb 19th), 9 (Feb 23rd).

[Apollo]

Lin has played a mere 64 games in his NBA career. He's a newborn baby by NBA standards (covered in gross after-birth with the umbilical cord still attached).

No doubt and people are suggesting the Raptors should give him $20M in the final two years on a contract. Two full MLE years in the beginning of the contract. All this based on 64 career games after he went undrafted and was cut like four times. Where are all the Lin supporters going to be in three years if the Raptors do this bone head deal? Pushing him and Colangelo under the bus is my guess.

[Nilanka]

Lol 4.5 TOPG would lead the League by a decent margin, Nilanka. Not a good start.
I'm not exaggerating at all. He turned it over ALOT.

He played an average of 26MPG, 136th in the League, and still managed to crack the Top 7 in Turnovers. Thats BAD.




There were games where he was taking 17 and 18 shots WITH Carmelo and Amare in the Lineup.

And once again, Bayless, played UNREAL as a PG, for a solid stretch of games, led us to wins against some solid teams ... and he's still not a PG? Odd.



And me.

And I'll point it out again. Bayless managed a better Assist/TO ratio than Lin, which to me, IS the measurement of a Point Guard.

The assist:turnover ratio is an overrated/misused stat. Nobody even knew what it was before Calderon started excelling in it. And he's far from the best PG in the league. Matt Bonner was #3 in A:TO ratio this year. Other guys in the top 10? Lou Williams, Andre Iguodala and Beno Udrih. If you're looking for a single statistical measure of PG play, I don't know if A:TO is your best option.

Yes, 4.5 turnovers is a lot, but is it that far ahead of Deron Williams' 4.0, or John Wall's 3.9, or Kevin Durant's 3.8? And it's a lot less than the "10" you quoted (hence the exaggeration).

Lin has played a mere 64 games in his NBA career. He's a newborn baby by NBA standards (covered in gross after-birth with the umbilical cord still attached). The assumption is that he'll cut down his turnovers in due time.

If Bayless is retained, it'll be because Barbosa was unavailable (as a scoring option off the bench). After all, Colangelo wouldn't go on the air saying that he needs a PG if he honestly thought Bayless was the guy.

[Apollo]

Joey, the difference is Bayless plays in Canada and so American media don't give him any credit. If Bayless was starting for the Knicks and getting 26MPG there would be arguments on whether he's worth $7M/yr. It is what it is. For what Bayless will earn for his talent he will be at a great discount in comparison to Lin. That's not saying a whole lot when people are talking about back loaded deals of $10M/yr for Lin.

[Joey]

so if a SG averages 3 assists and 1 turnover a game he is a PG now?

Not at all.
It shows me that he is not forcing the issue and making bad decisions, to the detriment of his team.

Bayless spent ALOT of time at PG and played well. Guys can try and say he's not a PG, but if you're going to give me the whole "Lin is a Project, and Young and etc etc.", then its a little hypocritical to not afford the same luxury to Bayless.
(They're the same age)

so if a SG averages 3 assists and 1 turnover a game he is a PG now?

So if a PG puts up 20 shots, 10 assists and 10 turnovers, does it still make him a True PG because he put up 10 assists?

[Apollo]

Per 36 minutes last year Lin was close to 5 TO/game. Raptors fans will lose their mind within a year of this guy starting after watching the ultra conservative and protective Jose Calderon for all these years. Half the fan base couldn't stand watching T.J. Ford's risks with the basketball. They aint seen nothing yet if Lin ends up here.

[thead]

And I'll point it out again. Bayless managed a better Assist/TO ratio than Lin, which to me, IS the measurement of a Point Guard.

so if a SG averages 3 assists and 1 turnover a game he is a PG now?

[Joey]

You're grossly exaggerating Lin's turnovers. In the last 26 games he played (all over 22 minutes of court time), Lin averaged 4.5 turnovers per game.

Lol 4.5 TOPG would lead the League by a decent margin, Nilanka. Not a good start.
I'm not exaggerating at all. He turned it over ALOT.

He played an average of 26MPG, 136th in the League, and still managed to crack the Top 7 in Turnovers. Thats BAD.

Lin took shots because he had to. He wouldn't be jacking up that many shots under normal circumstances. But when your best teammate is Landry Fields, taking 20 shots isn't exactly a problem....especially when it results in wins.

There were games where he was taking 17 and 18 shots WITH Carmelo and Amare in the Lineup.

And once again, Bayless, played UNREAL as a PG, for a solid stretch of games, led us to wins against some solid teams ... and he's still not a PG? Odd.

Bayless is not a point guard, period. Casey knows it. Colangelo knows it. The only one who doesn't realize it, is Bayless.

And me.

And I'll point it out again. Bayless managed a better Assist/TO ratio than Lin, which to me, IS the measurement of a Point Guard.

[Nilanka]

I'm sorry I just don't agree. Joey Graham was averaging a double double in more meaningful games that had playoff implications. But nevertheless, the point is whether or not the hype was justified and why Joey Graham's stretch, or anyone else's for that matter, isn't as famous. Jeremy Lin is just another guy, but he plays for the Knicks so he became a story. Joey Graham played for the raptors and that's why he didn't. Pretending that this does not have to do with the media is completely unjustifiable.

Sure, the NY media had something to do with it. But it's not the sole reason, or even the biggest reason. An unknown player single-handedly leading his shitty team to improbable wins, and doing so multiple times, is a big story on it's own merit.

Joey Graham was a bench player putting up double-doubles during his good "stretch". And if he didn't, the Raptors would've been perfectly fine without him. Graham was still the 5th option on the floor (at best). His 7-8 game run was literally meaningless, especially considering it came after 3.5 years of ineptitude. Management wasn't talking about re-signing Graham at all costs following that season, and there certainly weren't any other teams willing to make aggressive offers for his services.

Like I said, not an accurate comparison at all.