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Time to Mock the Mockers (2012 Edition)

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  • #16
    I think thats pretty much what we all said when Bargnani, Derozan and Davis were drafted. They all had the talent to push this team out of mediocrity. And now the team is yet going through another draft, expecting the same thing. Shouldnt the Raps start sticking to their guns and develop what they have rather than always riding on potential?

    If say, Drummond, turns out to not have the talent to be the top guy in the draft and the Raps have already traded Bargnani, how far will that set the Raptors back, again?

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    • #17
      tbihis wrote: View Post
      I think thats pretty much what we all said when Bargnani, Derozan and Davis were drafted. They all had the talent to push this team out of mediocrity. And now the team is yet going through another draft, expecting the same thing. Shouldnt the Raps start sticking to their guns and develop what they have rather than always riding on potential?

      If say, Drummond, turns out to not have the talent to be the top guy in the draft and the Raps have already traded Bargnani, how far will that set the Raptors back, again?
      You could ask "what if" with every scenario though. What if we pass up on Drummond and he goes on to become an MVP candidate?

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      • #18
        Nilanka wrote: View Post
        You could ask "what if" with every scenario though. What if we pass up on Drummond and he goes on to become an MVP candidate?
        hahaha that could be as well.

        But his success, will still be tied to the players around him. There still can be chemistry issues, his preference on where he really wants to play after his rookie contract is over, things of that nature.

        You have Raptors players now who are on contract, you know what theyre capable of, and you know that chemistry is a training camp and few practices away.

        Is the risk worth it to move pieces and possibly send this team into another major rebuild?
        Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Fri Mar 30th, 2012, 11:33 AM.

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        • #19
          If Portland take Beal ahead of us I give 'em a call regarding Matthews.
          @sweatpantsjer

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          • #20
            tbihis wrote: View Post
            I think thats pretty much what we all said when Bargnani, Derozan and Davis were drafted. They all had the talent to push this team out of mediocrity. And now the team is yet going through another draft, expecting the same thing.
            Wait, when have the not stuck to their guns? The way you phrase this it's like Colangelo has a track record of giving up on high lotto prospects. That couldn't be further from the truth. There's a difference between giving up on prospect and having a huge influx of young talent and having to balance it. Teams who draft out of need are typically the teams that make you step back later and make you ask questions like "why the hell did they take this guy instead of Andre Igulodala?!"

            tbihis wrote: View Post
            If say, Drummond, turns out to not have the talent to be the top guy in the draft and the Raps have already traded Bargnani, how far will that set the Raptors back, again?
            Why do you assume he would just deal away depth to make room for a rookie to play 40MPG? If anything Bargnani stays atleast until the deadline and over the summer Amir or Ed would be moved. Colangelo isn't going to saddle Casey with two rookies playing heavy minutes. Especially during a contract for both Colangelo and Casey.

            Nilanka wrote: View Post
            You could ask "what if" with every scenario though. What if we pass up on Drummond and he goes on to become an MVP candidate?
            Right. It's better to crash and burn due to error in talent evaluation than to get the talent evaluation correct, ignore it and instead draft out of necessity. Free agency is the place where you purposely fill holes, not the draft.

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            • #21
              Apollo wrote: View Post
              Why should that matter? These guys have been together for a short time and have accomplished nothing. Making upgrades should be free game.

              Drummond has the talent to be the top guy in the draft. A lot of things would have to play out the right way for it to happen but if Colangelo feels it will happen then why should we care about what happens to Andrea, Ed and Amir? It won't matter long term and they're going to get good players back for any of those guys.
              So you agree with Chad Ford that Drummond would be better for the Raps than Barnes?

              The point of the thread is, do you agree with the mock selection?
              Last edited by Katman; Fri Mar 30th, 2012, 11:38 AM.

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              • #22
                I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying Colangelo should take who ever is at the top of his draft board. Whether or not Chad Ford has that correct means nothing to me. I don't care who the player is at the end of the day as much as that the player has the most talent/upside out of what's left in the class.

                Last year I loved the idea of the Raptors getting Kemba Walker but you know what? I'm not an NBA scout, I don't do that for a living. I know Kemba Walker's game fairly well because I watched him many times but I didn't watch the other 29 players who went in the draft many times. So when #5 came up and the Raptors took JV I couldn't argue the pick. Colangelo came out and said he took the best player available and this was with three young big men already on roster. I didn't care then either. All I kept reading was how JV might be the best prospect in the draft. That's what got me on board with the pick. Colangelo made the most of his opportunity instead of trying to "get by" with his opportunity.

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                • #23
                  Apollo wrote: View Post
                  Wait, when have the not stuck to their guns? The way you phrase this it's like Colangelo has a track record of giving up on high lotto prospects. That couldn't be further from the truth. There's a difference between giving up on prospect and having a huge influx of young talent and having to balance it. Teams who draft out of need are typically the teams that make you step back later and make you ask questions like "why the hell did they take this guy instead of Andre Igulodala?!"



                  Why do you assume he would just deal away depth to make room for a rookie to play 40MPG? If anything Bargnani stays atleast until the deadline and over the summer Amir or Ed would be moved. Colangelo isn't going to saddle Casey with two rookies playing heavy minutes. Especially during a contract for both Colangelo and Casey.



                  Right. It's better to crash and burn due to error in talent evaluation than to get the talent evaluation correct, ignore it and instead draft out of necessity. Free agency is the place where you purposely fill holes, not the draft.
                  This actually puts it into perspective. For some reason, i already assumed that Bargnani would be the first one to go since a high pick like Drummond would probably expect to play heavy minutes even in his rookie year. But wouldnt there be a highly talented pick, good enough to fill the Raps needs?

                  I guess i was a bit vague in my argument, my argument should have initially been - if there's a draft pick highly talented enough to fill the raps needs, should they still go for the BPA? A prelude to Katman's question, hehehe.

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                  • #24
                    tbihis wrote: View Post
                    This actually puts it into perspective. For some reason, i already assumed that Bargnani would be the first one to go since a high pick like Drummond would probably expect to play heavy minutes even in his rookie year. But wouldnt there be a highly talented pick, good enough to fill the Raps needs?
                    Maybe it will work out that way. That would be the best case scenario. All I'm saying is that just like poker, you're not always dealt the best hand but that doesn't matter because making the best of what you've been dealt trumps all if you're good enough.

                    tbihis wrote: View Post
                    I guess i was a bit vague in my argument, my argument should have initially been - if there's a draft pick highly talented enough to fill the raps needs, should they still go for the BPA? A prelude to Katman's question, hehehe.
                    Always go for the best player available. You never want to be the guy who passed on a superstar to draft a slightly above average player to fill a roster hole. And that's not commentary about Drummond and Barnes, that's just a general statement. Both those guys could be gone before the Raptors pick. Chad Ford gets it wrong every year. He's no psychic.

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                    • #25
                      Apollo wrote: View Post
                      I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying Colangelo should take who ever is at the top of his draft board. Whether or not Chad Ford has that correct means nothing to me. I don't care who the player is at the end of the day as much as that the player has the most talent/upside out of what's left in the class.

                      Last year I loved the idea of the Raptors getting Kemba Walker but you know what? I'm not an NBA scout, I don't do that for a living. I know Kemba Walker's game fairly well because I watched him many times but I didn't watch the other 29 players who went in the draft many times. So when #5 came up and the Raptors took JV I couldn't argue the pick. Colangelo came out and said he took the best player available and this was with three young big men already on roster. I didn't care then either. All I kept reading was how JV might be the best prospect in the draft. That's what got me on board with the pick. Colangelo made the most of his opportunity instead of trying to "get by" with his opportunity.
                      I think the BPA is subjective. Colangelo might have said that JV was the BPA, but IMO, they were coveting a center, and they drafted a center. I know this maybe moot since the draft is over, but if Bargnani was averaging 10rebs and defending the paint like a center would normally do, was JV the right pick for the Raps? Would BC make him the 5th pick?
                      Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Fri Mar 30th, 2012, 04:14 PM.

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                      • #26
                        tbihis wrote: View Post
                        I think the BPA is objective. Colangelo might have said that JV was the BPA, but IMO, they were coveting a center, and they drafted a center. I know this maybe moot since the draft is over, but if Bargnani was averaging 10rebs and defending the paint like a center would normally do, was JV the right pick for the Raps? Would BC make him the 5th pick?
                        You can try to read between the lines all you want but I'm not going there with you. All I know is that Colangelo consistently comes out after a draft and states that he's selected the best player available. I also know that he has a better track record in the draft than a lot of the league.

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                        • #27
                          Nilanka wrote: View Post
                          You could ask "what if" with every scenario though. What if we pass up on Drummond and he goes on to become an MVP candidate?
                          jesus we already have five MVP candidates in Calderon, DeRozan Johnson, Bargnani and Valanciunas...

                          You guys are getting really greedy
                          For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                          • #28
                            tbihis wrote: View Post
                            I think the BPA is objective. Colangelo might have said that JV was the BPA, but IMO, they were coveting a center, and they drafted a center. I know this maybe moot since the draft is over, but if Bargnani was averaging 10rebs and defending the paint like a center would normally do, was JV the right pick for the Raps? Would BC make him the 5th pick?
                            One is not married to a draft pick either.

                            Selecting the Best Player Available gives the team more options and more opportunity to receive value via trade.

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                            • #29
                              Apollo wrote: View Post
                              You can try to read between the lines all you want but I'm not going there with you. All I know is that Colangelo consistently comes out after a draft and states that he's selected the best player available. I also know that he has a better track record in the draft than a lot of the league.
                              If you look back at the draft boards. DeRozan was the BPA Davis was the BPA and Valanciunas was for sure the BPA. Bargnani is just now proving to be the BPA from that draft (although up until this year that move looked shakey). I trust in BC when it comes time to draft. I trust in BC when it comes to fixing mistakes. Barbosa for Turk was a steal. I do think he jumps the gun a bit in free agency and trades in general though
                              For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                              • #30
                                I'm told several of the draft picks will eventually get married
                                For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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