Jose Watch 2012: Colangelo hints Jose will not be amnestied (#46)

[thead]

I think hes implying that you have to go to an allstar game or have prestigious awards to be a leader... you know, kinda like Vince, Tmac and Bosh...

So true but often your leader isn't your star. Mike Bibby (Atlanta) Derek Fisher (LA although Kobe would be co-captain there) Battier in Miami. Magloire in Toronto

[Bendit]

Toronto. It all comes down to what do you value more, paying someone to do nothing or overpaying someone to do one of the most important jobs on the floor.

Oh I am not so sure that Mo was doing "nothing". He was the primary 3pt option especially after Carter left and we had to replace him at the mid level price (which is what Mo got from the Hornets) with that great success story Kapono. Now if there was ever an overpaid player for doing nothing! And I am not advocating MO was worth those dollars...but he got it. Yes Jose has a more important role as the starting PG but this has been his best yr and I would say the only one that matches imo the monetary value of his contract. The previous two yrs. he was much overpaid (yes he had injuries and a shit team/coach).

[Apollo]

If Calderon would take a pay cut at the end of this next season...do maybe 4 - 6 million a year, I would have no issue keeping him around. Because in that range you can justify him mentoring someone, starting when needed but also being a really solid backup. I don't think we can continue with him at 10 - 11 million though. If Calderon could accept and hold on to being the backup it would really add a lot of depth to our bench.

You're going to have an issue then because he has another season left on contract. I'm not sure what the big deal is about that final year. We're not talking about an Eddy Curry type player being owed $40M or anything. After that he's going to get paid what the market demands. My guess is full MLE on the low end.

Yes Jose has a more important role as the starting PG but this has been his best yr and I would say the only one that matches imo the monetary value of his contract. The previous two yrs. he was much overpaid (yes he had injuries and a shit team/coach).

What is the criteria you're basing this statement on?

[j bean]

Mostly his credibility. At one time I believed he had a promising career but he has failed to deliver the goods. A real leader brings with him the ability to bring about change for the better. Jose doesn't make those around him better as you can see the teams winning% is the same with him or without him. As a leader on a young team they have to trust that he understands their individual abilities and will compliment and reinforce their skills. The tandem of JC and AB doesn't instill the problems for opposing teams that their most optimistic fans think and a change has to be made.

Sorry forgot to click reply with quote but this is in reply to Apollo at 12:22.

[thead]

Mostly his credibility. At one time I believed he had a promising career but he has failed to deliver the goods. A real leader brings with him the ability to bring about change for the better. Jose doesn't make those around him better as you can see the teams winning% is the same with him or without him. As a leader on a young team they have to trust that he understands their individual abilities and will compliment and reinforce their skills. The tandem of JC and AB doesn't instill the problems for opposing teams that their most optimistic fans think and a change has to be made.

Sorry forgot to click reply with quote but this is in reply to Apollo at 12:22.

Jose makes everyone around him a lot better. A lot of them just aren't very good to begin with.

[j bean]

What do you question about his leadership ability in particular?

Mostly his credibility. At one time I believed he had a promising career but he has failed to deliver the goods. A real leader brings with him the ability to bring about change for the better. Jose doesn't make those around him better as you can see the teams winning% is the same with him or without him. As a leader on a young team they have to trust that he understands their individual abilities and will compliment and reinforce their skills. The tandem of JC and AB doesn't instill the problems for opposing teams that their most optimistic fans think and a change has to be made.

[themasao]

I really think this has more to do with the money than with what Jose brings to the table. I think we've had him for long enough that management knows what they're dealing with. I'm much more concerned about BC's penchant for overpaying guys; I'm more worried about BC just offering him like 6.5 mil a year than I am about Jose demanding it/not living up to expectations.

[Apollo]

Mostly his credibility. At one time I believed he had a promising career but he has failed to deliver the goods. A real leader brings with him the ability to bring about change for the better. Jose doesn't make those around him better as you can see the teams winning% is the same with him or without him. As a leader on a young team they have to trust that he understands their individual abilities and will compliment and reinforce their skills. The tandem of JC and AB doesn't instill the problems for opposing teams that their most optimistic fans think and a change has to be made.

If you watch him play I think it's clear he does make people around him better . I also think its shortsighted to blame him for his GM's inability to supply him with lots of quality talent. He's not a superstar and so why are you putting such an expectation on him like having to carry the team? It's not realistic in my opinion but if you feel differently please provide realistic examples of players who could have done better?

You're also totally ignoring that he was a leader on a world champion national team. He had lots of talent around him there and I won't give him all the credit because he's one piece of that puzzle.

[j bean]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You are obviously enamored by him while I am not.
In other words you put much more weight on his positives than what I think his overall game warrants.
If you think he makes his teammates better tell me who.
As I've stated a couple of days ago, in the right circumstances Jose could start on a championship team.
That isn't the situation here.

[Apollo]

He's a great floor general. He makes everyone better with his high ball IQ and good shooting. Your whole argument is that he's not a good leader because of his win %. That's weak ground. It would be different if you said I think he's a poor leader for this, that and the other thing and also see here, the win percentage further validates my argument but you're not doing that. What you're doing is suggesting he's a poor leader because his team doesn't win many games. Do you see the flaw in this line of thinking?

[SitnonDfence]

He's a great floor general. He makes everyone better with his high ball IQ and good shooting. Your whole argument is that he's not a good leader because of his win %. That's weak ground. It would be different if you said I think he's a poor leader for this, that and the other thing and also see here, the win percentage further validates my argument but you're not doing that. What you're doing is suggesting he's a poor leader because his team doesn't win many games. Do you see the flaw in this line of thinking?

+1

Calderon has been very underrated for most of his career, when healthy, hes one of the best distributors out there... and i wouldnt be shocked to see him at the top of APG list with some quality talent around, and youd probably see his shooting go up...JV and a couple quality acquisitions might be just the thing he needs.

[Puffer]

The Raptors have lost with Jose, Demar, Bosh, Ed Davis, Amir, JJ, Andre, and all the rest, for the last two years. You could then say that none of those players makes any one around them better.

If you don't like Jose, no problem. Who are you going to trade him for that would be better? And who are you going to get to replace him with that would be better? Jose is not overpaid as a PG with the numbers he produces. And there is a strong likelihood that if he plays out his contract, he would re-sign at a more moderate one. If you trade him, who could you get as a back-up that would do as well as Jose would in 2013-2014 if he came back?

And please, where did this "What has he won" BS get started. Like there haven't been great player that never won a championship in the NBA. What a crock. it takes talent, coaching, management, and the luck of an injury free season to your front line player to win a championship. sometimes the luck of the draw as well, since every team matches up better against some teams then others.

[Apollo]

If you don't like Jose, no problem. Who are you going to trade him for that would be better? And who are you going to get to replace him with that would be better?

These are the kinds of logical questions that need answering when anyone suggests he should be traded. I personally changed my tune when I realized what was available in the draft and free agency. It's slim pickings and so what is available is going to go at a premium...

[Bendit]

What is the criteria you're basing this statement on?

2008-09 was the first yr. of his new/current contract.

Looking at the 4 seasons since...his pts./game and ast/game....

12.8 10.3 9.8 10.5

8.9 5.9 8.9 8.8

Except for the large drop off in assists in the season 2 yrs before the current (per my post) my eye test based memory does not match the stats in most areas which are fairly similar.

From: Basketball.reference.com

[CT2010]

He's a great floor general. He makes everyone better with his high ball IQ and good shooting. Your whole argument is that he's not a good leader because of his win %. That's weak ground. It would be different if you said I think he's a poor leader for this, that and the other thing and also see here, the win percentage further validates my argument but you're not doing that. What you're doing is suggesting he's a poor leader because his team doesn't win many games. Do you see the flaw in this line of thinking?

To be clear I am a Jose fan and agree with your assessment of his talents and leadership qualities and think he would be a great mentor to any young pg the Raps bring in to groom as his replacement of the future. I do however think that this guys point is not the winning percentage being low, but that is is the same with or without Jose on the floor.