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  • #46
    Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Sorry. Hopefully it is relevant and somewhat interesting.
    Don't apologize Matt.

    Anyone who doesn't enjoy your posts, or find some sort of value in their depth, doesn't enjoy a good conversation.

    Comment


    • #47
      Gorlitzer wrote: View Post
      You are embarrassing yourself with specious arguments.else.
      I believe you mean either "special" or "suspicious".

      specious is a word that I don't believe is in the english language.

      Just keep it for future reference, it doesn't help your credibility. Especially when you are telling someone they're emberassing themselves.
      If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

      Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

      Comment


      • #48
        joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
        Don't apologize Matt.

        Anyone who doesn't enjoy your posts, or find some sort of value in their depth, doesn't enjoy a good conversation.
        I was goin to come up with something wottyhere. But, the only thing I can come up with is fucked up sounding.

        So, instead I'll write this totally unnecessary and irrelevant post. While also driving up my post count because it makes me feel special.

        B-O-O-B-S!
        If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

        Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

        Comment


        • #49
          LBF wrote: View Post
          I was goin to come up with something wottyhere. But, the only thing I can come up with is fucked up sounding.

          So, instead I'll write this totally unnecessary and irrelevant post. While also driving up my post count because it makes me feel special.

          B-O-O-B-S!
          Amen.

          Comment


          • #50
            raptors2012 wrote: View Post
            Thank you peeps for emphasizing my point that we need a superstar.

            Yes Matt we do need other pieces but look at Chicago. They have amazing pieces, a winning culture, deep bench, a great coach but how many of you think they're going to win it all now that Rose is out with a torn ACL. This is exactly my point!

            We have good pieces? As Arsenalist mentions so beautifully in his piece "It all fell in line with the plan", BC is hoping that mediocre talent becomes above average talent. The key words is "hoping" and "mediocre". Are these your key pieces that you mention we need to win a championship?

            So how are we going to get that superstar? Buy him? Nope, why would they choose TO when they're going to get max where ever they go. Trade for him? Who's going to trade us their superstar? Hope that as we're in the mid range of the win/loss column and some how we luck out in the lottery? I guess that our only chance the way we're going. Sigh~

            Prove me wrong Chicago... so I can have a glimmer of hope that we too can win the championship if the stars align perfectly.
            Chicago finished first this year in the league with their star missing 27 games. We'll see what happens in the playoffs now. They are extremely well coached and have a lot of good pieces. Actually that sounds a familiar. They were a mediocre, just outside the playoffs team before hitting lottery luck and going from 9th to 1st.

            Chicago is not built solely around Rose. They are a deep team. This again comes back to the issue you need much more than a superstar. Superstars help but they don't win on their own. You need a solid coaching staff and talented players around them.

            Arse is a card carrying member of the "BC needs to leave" Club so anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt - just like anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt because I am the other end of the spectrum. I would like to think we are both objective though. Anyways, I don't think any of us can say exactly what BC is thinking. None of us are in his head. From what he said though he is rearing to go and changes are on the way. This is another issue I have with these arguments: none of us know where the Raptors are going to pick and none of us are privy to the types of trades/draft picks/free agent signings that could be on the horizon.

            Do the Raptors have key pieces needed to win a championship? Sure. I think there are guys that could help a championship team. Are they the main guys? No. Starters? Probably not.

            How many times do I have to say the way to get a superstar is lottery luck? That is the MAGICAL ANSWER.

            Chicago does need the stars to align perfectly - just like every other team who wins. You need solid coaching, talent, complimentary talent to the real talent, and no injuries to the real talent.

            Your whole argument comes down to we don't have a superstar so we're screwed. I couldn't disagree more. Getting a superstar is one piece of the puzzle - ask Cleveland..... or Orlando for that matter.

            Comment


            • #51
              Matt52 wrote: View Post
              Chicago finished first this year in the league with their star missing 27 games. We'll see what happens in the playoffs now. They are extremely well coached and have a lot of good pieces. Actually that sounds a familiar. They were a mediocre, just outside the playoffs team before hitting lottery luck and going from 9th to 1st.

              Chicago is not built solely around Rose. They are a deep team. This again comes back to the issue you need much more than a superstar. Superstars help but they don't win on their own. You need a solid coaching staff and talented players around them.

              Arse is a card carrying member of the "BC needs to leave" Club so anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt - just like anything I say should be taken with a grain of salt because I am the other end of the spectrum. I would like to think we are both objective though. Anyways, I don't think any of us can say exactly what BC is thinking. None of us are in his head. From what he said though he is rearing to go and changes are on the way. This is another issue I have with these arguments: none of us know where the Raptors are going to pick and none of us are privy to the types of trades/draft picks/free agent signings that could be on the horizon.

              Do the Raptors have key pieces needed to win a championship? Sure. I think there are guys that could help a championship team. Are they the main guys? No. Starters? Probably not.

              How many times do I have to say the way to get a superstar is lottery luck? That is the MAGICAL ANSWER.

              Chicago does need the stars to align perfectly - just like every other team who wins. You need solid coaching, talent, complimentary talent to the real talent, and no injuries to the real talent.

              Your whole argument comes down to we don't have a superstar so we're screwed. I couldn't disagree more. Getting a superstar is one piece of the puzzle - ask Cleveland..... or Orlando for that matter.
              We're going back and forth on this but I agree that you need other pieces but disagree on the superstar aspect. Sure you can draft really well and pick up a star eg. Arenas but a true superstar doesn't just appear in the middle or end of the draft. Howard, Duncan, Durant, Rose, Wade, Lebron, CP3, Griffin etc etc were destined to be stars before they came into the NBA. With today's scouts you are not going to end up having a superstar fall in your lap and the mid, end of the draft. Sure, the number one pick is not a guarantee for a superstar and sometimes you get lucky in the years that you draft like the Lebron draft but I say again, superstars aren't found mid-late 1st round. This is not the KG Kobe era where hs kids were an unknown. Even Gino, Parkers will get spotted now due to advanced international scouting and bball being an international game.

              Again, the only team that seemed to defy that logic was that Billups' Detroit team. But that team had players who were the best in the league at what they do: Billups - crunch time, Rip - spot up shooter, Tyshaun - defense and scoring, Ben - shot blocker, Rasheed - scoring and defense. That was an amazing team.

              Other than that - EVERY team that won in recent history had at least one superstar and near superstars to compliment them.

              End of argument!

              PS - As amazing as Chicago team is even without Rose, they don't have a prayer in winning the championship without Rose. Leagues best record - sure, championship - no way jose. Book it~
              Last edited by raptors2012; Sun Apr 29, 2012, 03:44 AM.

              Comment


              • #52
                LBF wrote: View Post
                I believe you mean either "special" or "suspicious".

                specious is a word that I don't believe is in the english language.

                Just keep it for future reference, it doesn't help your credibility. Especially when you are telling someone they're emberassing themselves.
                http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/specious

                Awk-ward...
                Last edited by Gorlitzer; Sun Apr 29, 2012, 06:45 AM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  raptors2012 wrote: View Post
                  We're going back and forth on this but I agree that you need other pieces but disagree on the superstar aspect. Sure you can draft really well and pick up a star eg. Arenas but a true superstar doesn't just appear in the middle or end of the draft. Howard, Duncan, Durant, Rose, Wade, Lebron, CP3, Griffin etc etc were destined to be stars before they came into the NBA. With today's scouts you are not going to end up having a superstar fall in your lap and the mid, end of the draft. Sure, the number one pick is not a guarantee for a superstar and sometimes you get lucky in the years that you draft like the Lebron draft but I say again, superstars aren't found mid-late 1st round. This is not the KG Kobe era where hs kids were an unknown. Even Gino, Parkers will get spotted now due to advanced international scouting and bball being an international game.

                  Again, the only team that seemed to defy that logic was that Billups' Detroit team. But that team had players who were the best in the league at what they do: Billups - crunch time, Rip - spot up shooter, Tyshaun - defense and scoring, Ben - shot blocker, Rasheed - scoring and defense. That was an amazing team.

                  Other than that - EVERY team that won in recent history had at least one superstar and near superstars to compliment them.

                  End of argument!

                  PS - As amazing as Chicago team is even without Rose, they don't have a prayer in winning the championship without Rose. Leagues best record - sure, championship - no way jose. Book it~

                  This was koncept's original post:

                  Very typical of a Toronto team - not good enough to make playoffs, never shitty enough to get good draft picks. We're doomed everyone, keep hoping but we'll be stuck without a properly built team for the rest of time.
                  The argument is: "...the Raptors are not good enough to make the playoffs, never shitty enough to get a good draft pick. We're doomed everyone, keep hoping but we'll be stuck without a properly built team for the rest of time."

                  The Raptors, in my opinion, are not doomed. Plain and simple. Getting high draft picks year after year guarantees nothing as I have shown. Superstar players are available outside the top 3 players. The list you provided was evident of this - but then of course the argument changed. We have no idea who the Raptors will draft this year yet nor what their potential will be and we have no idea what JV's potential will be - JV could be the superstar but no one knows that without the benefit of hindsight and time. As of now anyone saying he is definitely not the superstar is talking out their ass - as is anyone saying he will be. All this talk about superstar and LeBron James.... hmmmm, how many championships has he won? Zero. And that is also with a year of teaming with an all-star in Bosh and another franchise talent in Wade. So I guess now the Raptors need 2 franchise players and an all-star? And if Championships is the only thing that matters, Miami is a failure too? Yet a team built around a 9th overall draft pick who was 32 before he won a championship beat the might LBJ and Dwane Wade. Further proof that you don't need a top draft pick to gain a championship and further proof that the most talented players do not automatically win.

                  The whole problem with this thread is the extreme unfounded negativity. There are lots of positives in Raptor-land. The fact is 2 wins separated Toronto from where they are and where people wanted them to be in a 66 game season. So to add to the problem of extreme unfounded negativity we also have extreme overreaction. What happens if the Raptors get some lottery luck and pick top 3? All of a sudden things are perfect? The Raptors are going to automatically win championships? Hardly. Very little will change except the perception among those who think you need a top draft pick to build a winner.

                  The Detroit example is a good one. While it is the exception to the rule, it shows good coaching and a solid team can overcome 4 hall of famers with 2 in their prime. I would most definitely disagree that the Pistons starting lineup were all the best at what they did. Outside of Ben Wallace that is a gross generalization and sucks the credibility from the argument.

                  A team like Sacramento or Charlotte has a brutal near and intermediate future.
                  A team like Milwaukee or Detroit is stuck in mediocrity with very limited flexibility moving forward.

                  That high school player and international scouting argument is still ridiculous by the way. A statement backed up with no proof other than an opinion is hardly credible. Here are all the high school draft picks from 1995 until 2005:


                  1995 1 5 Kevin Garnett*
                  1996 1 13 Kobe Bryant*
                  1996 1 17 Jermaine O'Neal*
                  1997 1 9 Tracy McGrady*
                  1998 1 25 Al Harrington
                  1998 2 32 Rashard Lewis+
                  1998 2 40 Korleone Young
                  1999 1 5 Jonathan Bender
                  1999 1 25 Leon Smith
                  2000 1 3 Darius Miles
                  2000 1 23 DeShawn Stevenson
                  2001 1 1 Kwame Brown
                  2001 1 2 Tyson Chandler
                  2001 1 4 Eddy Curry
                  2001 1 8 DeSagana Diop
                  2001 2 46 Ousmane Cisse#
                  2002 1 9 Amar'e Stoudemire*
                  2003 1 1 LeBron James*

                  2003 1 23 Travis Outlaw
                  2003 1 26 Ndudi Ebi 2003 1 27 Kendrick Perkins
                  2003 2 48 James Lang
                  2004 1 1 Dwight Howard*
                  2004 1 4 Shaun Livingston

                  2004 1 12 Robert Swift
                  2004 1 13 Sebastian Telfair
                  2004 1 15 Al Jefferson
                  2004 1 17 Josh Smith
                  2004 1 18 J. R. Smith
                  2004 1 19 Dorell Wright
                  2005 1 6 Martell Webster
                  2005 1 10 Andrew Bynum+
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_high_school_draftees
                  As for international players, quite a few drafted 'back in the day' when international players were 'unknowns'. Your argument might fly in the 1980's and early 1990's but hardly in the last 15 years.

                  Year Number of Players First Round Second Round
                  2004 20 8 12
                  2003 21 9 12
                  2002 17 6 11
                  2001 11 6 5
                  2000 14 7 7
                  1999 9 3 6
                  1998 9 6 3
                  1997 12 4 8
                  1996 7 6 1
                  1995 4 1 3
                  1994 3 1 2
                  1993 4 1 3

                  http://mediacentral.nba.com/media/me.../fastfacts.pdf
                  So I guess that is the end of argument because you already declared victory.



                  The Raptors are doomed everybody! D-o--o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-M-E-D!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    For what it is worth, I understood the word - lol.

                    However, since this thread is about how doomed the Raptors are, I would also point out your argument is also quite specious.

                    We have no idea:

                    1) where Toronto will draft in 2012
                    2) who Toronto drafts in 2012
                    3) what will be done with the 2 second round picks or who they are used to draft
                    4) what Toronto does with the $12M in cap space
                    5) what the Raptors do with the $7.6M TPE
                    6) what Bargnani shows up next year
                    7) what becomes of JV
                    8) what trades could be made
                    9) what free agents are signed
                    10) what progress any Raptor player could make next year

                    There are so many variables and so much flexibility the front office currently has anything is possible.

                    It comes down to if you see the glass half empty or half full at this point - a matter of perspective.

                    Come mid-July, things should become more clear and a debate can be had based on more than unbridled optimism or jaded negativity.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Raptors are going to be just fine. Trust me.
                      Official Pope of the Raptors sponsored by MLSE.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        RandomGuy wrote: View Post
                        Raptors are going to be just fine. Trust me.
                        +1 yes you are correct

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
                          Amen.
                          Now you got it!
                          If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                          Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            RandomGuy wrote: View Post
                            Raptors are going to be just fine. Trust me.
                            Why would I trust a RandomGuy?

                            bada bing!

                            Thankyou, I'm here 'tilthursday.
                            If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                            Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Trust me.
                              Official Pope of the Raptors sponsored by MLSE.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                That is seriously a word in the Canadian english dictionary!?

                                The definition is similar to "suspicious".

                                But, seriously. That is not a commonly used word. Sounds like Bryan Murray trying to say "suspicious".
                                If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

                                Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

                                Comment

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