The point guard comparison - effectiveness of either Jose or JB at the point

[torch19]

Do you have any stats on the babe in your avatar. Using the good ole eye test she can play on my team anytime (24/7).

Hope I am not being too personal here like she maybe your gf?

btw....informative post.

She is not my girlfriend. I would not post a picture of my girlfriend on a site where more or less anonymity is valued. lol

But to answer your curiosity, youtube "Melanie Iglesias flipbook" and you will be amazed.

[torch19]

FANTASTIC post Torch. Kudos, sir.

I always had a sneaking suspicion this was the case, but now we can see the numbers back it up.

Unfortunately, this won't change anyones mind about Bayless.

Thanks! I worked hard on it. What a day off from work and some boredom can accomplish.

I also had a feeling that Bayless wasn't as bad as people perceived and sure enough, I found some stats to help his cause, even for just a bit.

[saints91]

Great job on the stats! I'm not going to dive into the old debate, because I have said enough about the subject.

I think at this point it comes down to a preference of what style of game you like. I enjoy watching Jose run the offence because there is more ball movement. The Raps play very differently with each guy playing point guard. That does not show up in stat lines. Bayless' game not my preferred style. It's all opinion based.

There have always been arguments over what players are better, when really its mostly preference.

It's basically the Gretzky vs Lemieux debate. Gretzky has the records, but Lemieux didn't have a chance to play as long. Alas this not a hockey forum, but holds true in this situation.

Maybe Bayless is more effective than I give credit. I just don't enjoy watching him play the point.

[theycallmeZZ]

If you don't mind me asking, what about the stats on Jose and Bayless in the lineup together. I really liked it when the lineup went small.

Of course, my memory might not be that good...

[RapthoseLeafs]

Bayless & Calderon - Duelling PG's in Raptorland (again ? )

I sometimes wonder how Jose feels about all these Contenders to his throne - or maybe that should be Pretenders.

I have to admit - I'm not a big fan of Bayless. Am I biased, and ignoring the stats - limited as they are. Or am I simply taking into account all the variables that seem to go with Bayless, and his quest to become our official Starting PG.

The concerns/observations I have, could include:

• Why does Jarryd play better when he starts. Is that petulance, or just a simple fact?
• Why does Bayless feel he's a Starter (at this juncture), yet hasn't really been deserving of that position? Or more to the point, hasn't quite proven he has that quality?
• Granted, Jose has had his injuries over time (too much playing time in my mind - including overseas), yet I'm concerned about JB's ability to maintain himself at the level of minutes Calderon has had?
• Why do I feel our Offense runs smoother with JC, even though the limited stats give credibility to Bayless?
• Why do I feel Jose is a better team & veteran presence? Or will in time, Jarryd become such a player?

On another note (to which these stats bring out), they seem to indicate some obvious factors/questions:

• We need a real Center
• What happened to Ed Davis? I know some wondered why he didn't get more court time, but these stats seem to back how (or why) Casey allotted them as such.
• And lastly - and yes they are limited stats - it gave a little up to Andrea, who really gets little respect.

.

[Kuh]

The sample sizes are definitely very small, but I had also mentioned that in the post. However, the object of the post was to analyze which point guard worked better with similar line-ups. Although I agree that the sample sizes are not large enough to draw up a definitive conclusion, I mentioned that it was still somewhat a good indication on what each other brought to the forefront.

I would have loved to have worked with better numbers, but I simply presented what was.

For the object of my analysis, I believe I used the data that best settles my curiosity.

I simply offered a fresh take on what otherwise was, a landslide debate in favour of Jose.

To be fair you did mention that, Torch. And the fresh take is interesting

[Kuh]

I sometimes wonder how Jose feels about all these Contenders to his throne - or maybe that should be Pretenders.

I have to admit - I'm not a big fan of Bayless. Am I biased, and ignoring the stats - limited as they are. Or am I simply taking into account all the variables that seem to go with Bayless, and his quest to become our official Starting PG.

The concerns/observations I have, could include:

• Why does Jarryd play better when he starts. Is that petulance, or just a simple fact?
• Why does Bayless feel he's a Starter (at this juncture), yet hasn't really been deserving of that position? Or more to the point, hasn't quite proven he has that quality?
• Granted, Jose has had his injuries over time (too much playing time in my mind - including overseas), yet I'm concerned about JB's ability to maintain himself at the level of minutes Calderon has had?
• Why do I feel our Offense runs smoother with JC, even though the limited stats give credibility to Bayless?
• Why do I feel Jose is a better team & veteran presence? Or will in time, Jarryd become such a player?

On another note (to which these stats bring out), they seem to indicate some obvious factors/questions:

• We need a real Center
• What happened to Ed Davis? I know some wondered why he didn't get more court time, but these stats seem to back how (or why) Casey allotted them as such.
• And lastly - and yes they are limited stats - it gave a little up to Andrea, who really gets little respect.

.

Actually there are more consistent stats, with less noise and more predictability: wins produced. They have Jose at .200 or so and Jerryd at .075 where .100 is an average NBA player.
http://www.thenbageek.com/teams/tor

[torch19]

Actually there are more consistent stats, with less noise and more predictability: wins produced. They have Jose at .200 or so and Jerryd at .075 where .100 is an average NBA player.
http://www.thenbageek.com/teams/tor

WP48 is a very precise calculation and also offers a very good indication on the player's production. By summing up all of the wins produced by every player on the Raptors roster, you should be able to obtain the actual number of wins (in this case, 23) with a margin of error of 2.5

The actual number of summation of wins is 24.73, which goes to say that the calculation was accurate.

However, I ask you this question. Can you credit 20 of those wins directly to these three players? - Amir Johnson, Jose Calderon and Ed Davis ? -- as indicated by those statistics.

I offered one line-up with Jose, DD, JJ, Ed and Amir and they were not very effective together. You might argue that it has to be DeMar/JJ since their WP48 are -0.03 and -0.06, respectively.

In my defense, I would offer you that the more effective line-up the Raptors had this season included a line-up of:
- Jerryd Bayless - Gary Forbes - DeMar DeRozan - Linas Kleiza and - Ed Davis
where two of those three players were not included.

But again, it is all left for interpretation. I agree that Jose is a very good point guard, and I remember reading an article before that presented WP48 and summation of wins as the basis of the report. But to fully credit 81% of Toronto's victories to Ed, Amir and Jose solely ......

[torch19]

Additionally, the Lakers garnered 41 wins this season, with Kobe Bryant being credited for only 2 of those wins ...

The factors that affect the statistic are (primary factors)
- shooting efficiency
- rebs, steals and to's
- assists, blocks and personal fouls

Missed shots are factored in negatively.

[tjford11]

The thing I don't like about Bayless is his sense of entitlement. Personally, I don't give a shit how high of a prospect he was ranked coming out of High School or College, or that his Dad is a psychiatrist. Like wasn't BJ Mullens the top ranked High School prospect a few years ago? Dude is riding the pine on the Bobcats and I can't even name another C on that team outside of Jordan's prized possession Kwame B. He's a great player but lets his mentality get in the way too much and places WAY too much on being a starter. He should be preoccupied with earning minutes and contributing before he starts labeling himself a starter. Plus, JC is a great guard who can actually handle and pass the ball - JB needs to learn to be more of a team player and quit sulking about his minutes before thinking about becoming a starter. Don't get me wrong, I'd hate to see Bayless go and really think he can be an asset to our team - but he needs to buy into the success of the team first, before considering himself all-star material.

[MangoKid]

Kudos to the work you put in. Much appreciated, sir.

I remember coming across an Arizona Wildcats fan site not too long ago and they had posted something similar about Bayless, with his efficiency ratings on offense and defense as well as stats compiled from when he was the starter/given starter minutes and they were quite good.

While I do like Bayless - and would like for him to stick around - as a combo 6th man off the bench (much like Jason Terry), with such a young team we have, in my opinion, it would be more beneficial to have a calming presence playing the point as opposed to someone who looks to shoot first.

[Arsenalist]

Nice post.

What kills Bayless' perception among fans, and rightfully so, is that the guy has had some absolutely stinkers this season. Look at his game logs during the middle of the season:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../gamelog/2012/

The stats that you've posted have been greatly inflated by the last 10 games of the season or so, which is the time when nothing should be evaluated or at least viewed with a discriminating eye.

[footarez]

Amazing work. Thank you. I would love to keep Bayless - PG or 6th man - it doesn't matter. It is not like Calderon will play the next 82 games.

[special1]

this is coming from the dude who clearly loves ME-J (TJ FORD)...hahhaha......hilarious!

[special1]

The thing I don't like about Bayless is his sense of entitlement. Personally, I don't give a shit how high of a prospect he was ranked coming out of High School or College, or that his Dad is a psychiatrist. Like wasn't BJ Mullens the top ranked High School prospect a few years ago? Dude is riding the pine on the Bobcats and I can't even name another C on that team outside of Jordan's prized possession Kwame B. He's a great player but lets his mentality get in the way too much and places WAY too much on being a starter. He should be preoccupied with earning minutes and contributing before he starts labeling himself a starter. Plus, JC is a great guard who can actually handle and pass the ball - JB needs to learn to be more of a team player and quit sulking about his minutes before thinking about becoming a starter. Don't get me wrong, I'd hate to see Bayless go and really think he can be an asset to our team - but he needs to buy into the success of the team first, before considering himself all-star material.

this is coming from the dude who clearly loves ME-J (TJ FORD)...hahhaha......hilarious!