Would you rather Lin or Bayless?

[Papa Burgundy]

I don't have the stats to backup this statement, but if memory serves me well, Bayless was pretty awful coming off the bench. The only time he looked like an NBA player was while starting.

Stats I have seen people post, WOULD in fact back-up what you're saying - but i'm not interested in that sample size.

Going off of watching all those games, seeing how he so often coughs up the ball to the pressure of other lead guards when he is a part of their scouting report ... looking to get off his offence when it is at the expense of another player who is hot, or needs to get involved.

In his bench role behind Jose, I thought Bayless was a totally acceptable bench Guard ... Lin's history as a bench guard is very patchy and filled with many tickets out of town. He thrived when given tons of minutes and a HUGE leash for turnovers and decision making, due to lack of depth. Can HE be a backup? History hasn't shown yet.

This thread is about with no other PG choice ... I still like Bayless.

[Nilanka]

Ok, well you can be of the opinion that gravity does not exist but I assure you it's not wise to jump off your roof. Similarly Casey plays Bayless almost strictly at PG so therefore...

I don't see the parallel between scientific doctrine (i.e. the laws of gravity) and Casey's basketball-related opinions.

I can't tell you the last time gravity was proven wrong, but I can certainly point out many times Casey has been wrong.

BTW, I'm sure Casey played Forbes more minutes at PG as well, but there isn't much we can conclude from that.

[Apollo]

If Casey decides Forbes is a PG, he's a PG. Whether or not you feel he's effective at that position is a different story. That's where your opinion matters. Unless you're taking over the Raptors and get to decide the depth chart and substitutions your opinion on whether or not he's a PG has no meaning or value. Its not for you to decide. Exact same thing goes for me too. Why don't we debate something that makes sense, like whether or not he's an effective PG? Or what position he would be most effective at playing? Maybe were saying the same thing and I'm being picky?

[Nilanka]

Why don't we debate something that makes sense, like whether or not he's an effective PG? Or what position he would be most effective at playing?

That is exactly what we're debating (without focusing on the semantics). As I've said all along, I don't think Bayless is skilled enough to be running a team.

[Apollo]

Well I feel Bayless is most effective at the PG slot. I also feel he's so young and gifted that it's to difficult at this point to tell where he's headed. I don't feel he's worth the $4M qualifying offer but I do feel it would be good to bring him back at market value.

I don't like Lin any more than Bayless. I'm just as skeptical but in his case I don't want him at market value because his market value is inflated due to things that have nothing to do with his overall abilities. I feel he's worth no more than Bayless' $4M qualifying offer. Instead you will see him get double that on average.

[Nilanka]

Well I feel Bayless is most effective at the PG slot. I also feel he's so young and gifted that it's to difficult at this point to tell where he's headed. I don't feel he's worth the $4M qualifying offer but I do feel it would be good to bring him back at market value.

I don't like Lin any more than Bayless. I'm just as skeptical but in his case I don't want him at market value because his market value is inflated due to things that have nothing to do with his overall abilities. I feel he's worth no more than Bayless' $4M qualifying offer. Instead you will see him get double that on average.

What if we simplify the Lin/Bayless discussion. If you're at your neighbourhood court, with 3 of your buddies, and both Lin and Bayless were available to run your team, who would you choose? The intention of this scenario is to ignore salaries.

[Apollo]

Salary is a huge factor in this case so I won't be ignoring it. It's too important when one guy might end up getting upwards of three times what the other gets on his next deal. Do the abilities warrant that extra money? Not a chance.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

What if we simplify the Lin/Bayless discussion. If you're at your neighbourhood court, with 3 of your buddies, and both Lin and Bayless were available to run your team, who would you choose? The intention of this scenario is to ignore salaries.

At equal salaries, in the $4-5M range, I would prefer Lin to Bayless.

Given the reality of the salary requirements to pry Lin from NY, there's no way I would offer such an unproven commodity a salary starting at the max-MLE that escalates to upwards of $10M per season. I would then take Bayless.

For the record, aside from this thread which forces me to sign one of Bayless or Lin, I would much prefer the Raps to have absolutely nothing to do with either player next season. I can't stand Bayless and think Lin is overrated and will be grossly overpaid.

[mcHAPPY]

Personally, I can't let salary go in the discussion either.

However, one thing to consider is, as the rules are now*, the Knicks will be capped at $74M with any contract given to Lin over $3M.

*It should be noted this may change as the NBAPA and the NBA are going to arbitration over the retention of Bird Rights on a waiver wire pickup.

[yertu damkule]

For the record, aside from this thread which forces me to sign one of Bayless or Lin, I would much prefer the Raps to have absolutely nothing to do with either player next season. I can't stand Bayless and think Lin is overrated and will be grossly overpaid.

i'm in the same boat...i'm skeptical of lin's ability to adjust to defenses adjusting to him. it's a nice story & all, but i'd be surprised if he was anything more than a marginal PG - and likely a back-up quality PG - over the long haul.

[special1]

What if we simplify the Lin/Bayless discussion. If you're at your neighbourhood court, with 3 of your buddies, and both Lin and Bayless were available to run your team, who would you choose? The intention of this scenario is to ignore salaries.

I would take Bayless in a heartbeat!! Your crazy dude! I seen what bayless can do if he gets consistent minutes and starts....personally i think he was the best consistent 3 point shooter on our team last year (42 percent)....and he's very aggressive and gets to the rim often.... He will be perfect as our back up point guard with only 4 mil QO.....He also knows Casey's system and is being groomed to take over for Jose in a year or two.....Keep in mind Bayless is ONLY 23 Years old!!!.... he's tough as nails!...and he actually wants to be HERE.... if anyone listens to the guy, all he says is that he wants to be here and will do whatever's asked of him.... why do people dislike the fact that he views himself as a STARTER?? is that such a big deal? he works hard and has the skills to back it up.... I will be extremely dissappointed if we take Lin's 25 game sample and throw $$$ at him..... i think a lot of people will be dissappointed (turkoglu 2.0). Best thing for the team would be to start Bayless and bring Jose off the bench earlier (say 6 minute mark). Bayless would produce and we all know Jose produces whether he starts or comes off the bench.....Its not who starts but who finishes right??? RIGHT??

[Nilanka]

I would take Bayless in a heartbeat!! Your crazy dude! I seen what bayless can do if he gets consistent minutes and starts....personally i think he was the best consistent 3 point shooter on our team last year (42 percent)....and he's very aggressive and gets to the rim often.... He will be perfect as our back up point guard with only 4 mil QO.....He also knows Casey's system and is being groomed to take over for Jose in a year or two.....Keep in mind Bayless is ONLY 23 Years old!!!.... he's tough as nails!...and he actually wants to be HERE.... if anyone listens to the guy, all he says is that he wants to be here and will do whatever's asked of him.... why do people dislike the fact that he views himself as a STARTER?? is that such a big deal? he works hard and has the skills to back it up.... I will be extremely dissappointed if we take Lin's 25 game sample and throw $$$ at him..... i think a lot of people will be dissappointed (turkoglu 2.0). Best thing for the team would be to start Bayless and bring Jose off the bench earlier (say 6 minute mark). Bayless would produce and we all know Jose produces whether he starts or comes off the bench.....Its not who starts but who finishes right??? RIGHT??

I'm not saying Lin is our answer. As many have noted, his asking price will be too high to justify.

But Bayless is definitely not our answer at point guard. He's not being "groomed" to take over Jose's reigns (Colangelo may not even bring him back next season).

And I find it amusing that "he wants to be here" is actually factoring into people's decision making process. Who cares if he likes the city and works hard? We could've said the same about Julian Wright. If he doesn't play the position well, everything else is meaningless.

Even funnier is the idea that Bayless can produce off the bench. What evidence is there to support this theory? Bayless has been awful his entire career playing backup minutes.

And lastly, what really busts my gut is that there is this much discussion over Bayless. A guy whose best-case scenario is Jarrett Jack, is hardly worth this much debate.

[ezz_bee]

You definitely shouldn't ignore salary when making these kinds of comparison's but I don't see anything wrong with talking hypotheicals if Bayless and Lin were getable for the same price, I would still go for Bayless. As inconsistent as he is I think that defenses will have a harder time adjusting to him than Lin. I really think that Lin will be(was) a flash in the pan. If started today and said which player is going to get more NBA starts I'd pick J Bay.

That said, he probably isn't my first choice when it comes to a raps pg (or even tenth!) but no matter how you stack him up with lin I think he comes out tops.

[special1]

I wish everyone in raptorland would just chill out for a minute..... we gave up on chauncey billups....the suns originally gave up on nash........if your reading this go to nba.com.....but let me state this from now ***I AM NOT COMPARING BAYLESS TO STEVE NASH** I repeat i am not comparing..... i just want to illustrate the point that it takes a while for young players to run the point guard position....check out nash's stats for 4 years from 1996-2000..... it wasnt until his 5th year in the league when he started getting consistent minutes and starts that he took a significant jump in stats and play......

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/steve_...eer_stats.html

I would argue that Jeremy Lin knew he was the starter in NY and did not have to look over his shoulders and hence why his play got a whole lot better......confidence and playing time can do amazing things....

Comparing Jarrett Jack to Bayless is rather easy at this point.....but Bayless averaged 18 ppg as a 22-23 year old starter......and i think he can improve at sharing the ball and getting his teammates better opportunities....he can spread the floor because he is a consistent 3 point threat.....

My point is that we give up far too early on our young point guards..... one of my favourites was Alvin Williams.....HEART and CLUTCH plays are the most important things to me.....in the playoffs it will come down to who wants it more and who can make things happen.....standing around waiting for a perfect pass will not get you wins..... why would you want to get rid of our best 3 point shooter anyways??? dont we need shooters?? check the stats and get your mind right Homie!

http://www.nba.com/raptors/stats/2011

[Nilanka]

Some young players eventually figure things out, and go on to have very nice careers. But even more young players completely fizzle out, don't live up to the hype, and are destined to be spot-duty role players forever. The odds of Bayless turning into anything resembling Chauncy Billups (a future hall of famer), are pretty slim.

As for Bayless being our best 3 point shooter? Again I say, who cares? By losing Bayless, is Colangelo incapable of finding other shooters? There are 450 players in the NBA, but we must keep Bayless because he shoots 3's at a 35% clip? C'mon man.