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Nash or Lowry

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  • #46
    black angus wrote: View Post
    add all the influence those 7 points have and they still pale in comparison to the chance of winning a championship
    I've got about $25 million reasons why Nash would choose the Raptors over a title contender (Heat), and that is the extra year and $25 million he will make. Let's face facts here, unless Nash ended up on the Heat or the Thunder, he is not winning a championship in the next 3 years (his final years in the league). That's why he takes the significantly greater money from TO and becomes the face of the franchise to close out his career. If we add Nash, Lillard at #8, and a capable SF starter through FA, then we likely have a playoff team that can contend for 2nd round the playoffs. Nash will leave in 3 years with Lillard taking the reigns, having led Toronto back to the playoffs and relevancy. In my eyes, that would be a fantastic way to end your career.

    As for SF to add, I'm targeting Batum, and if that fails possibly Marvin Williams from the Hawks. We could get Williams for our Barbosa TPE (which would be very attractive to the cash strapped Hawks), and could probably get Atlanta to throw in a future 1st rounder for taking Marvin's salary off their hands (they desperately need money to try and resign Josh Smith and Jeff Teague). Not a perfect fit but a definite upgrade over JJ, at a reasonable price, and only for 2 years (lasy year is player option so Marv could opt out too).


    • #47
      Nilanka wrote: View Post
      Tough call, but I would lean towards Nash. 1. I'm not that sold on Lowry as being our long-term solution. 2. Like Mango suggested, having Nash instantly makes the Raptors an intriguing free agent destination. Don't think that NBA players haven't noticed how easy he makes the game look for Marion, Diaw, Gortat, Frye, Dudley, etc. If you're looking to improve your performance, play next to a PG who can create easy looks for you. Like moth to a flame...
      I'm actually picking Lowry, but only by a very very slim margin. We've seen time and time again our PGs getting burned by faster PGs, and having two aging ones in Nash and Calderon wouldnt be fun to watch.

      However, Mango is right, with Nash here, more FAs will pay attention to Toronto, mainly because Nash is highly respected in the league, and that would probably convince other superstars to team up with him to help him get a championship.


      • #48
        Agreed with Primer. Nash is a very business-savvy individual. And there's nothing business-savvy about leaving $15-25 million on the table for a shot at a championship.


        • #49
          Mediumcore wrote: View Post
          I'm starting to get a little disinchanted with Nash actually (sacreligous I know). He seems to be after personal gain rather than chasing a championship. That's the same as Calderon saying he'd play back up to Ford or Jack for the "good of the team". Where's your competetive spark? You should want to win if you're a competitor. Nash, seemingly just wants to set himself up for the future it would seem.
          Good grief, you just can't win with people like you! I don't profess to know what's going on in Nash's head, but say he wants to finish out his career in his homeland, perhaps at least in part due to a sense of patriotism or at least familiarity and comfort level with playing in his home country, and, yes, scandalously, get paid well in the process. Well, in that case you slam him. But say he did what you're suggesting: go to Miami or some other destination where he would be best able to chase a ready-made championship. Then you'd slam him for pulling a Lebron. NASH JUST CAN'T WIN!!!


          • #50
            One point about Lowry: He is close to Alvin Williams who probably has the book on his game and personality as well as what went down in Houston.


            • #51
              bearvon wrote: View Post

              It may be short term, but he would speed up the development of JV.
              That's a good call. I didn't really think of it that way. He does have those kind of intangibles.


              • #52
                If we trade for Lowry does that kill our chance of trading for Gay or Igoudala? (in which case we trade for an SF and sign Nash in FA)


                • #53
                  Mediumcore wrote: View Post
                  My pick provided we're giving up the exact same to acquire said player would be for Nash as he makes us much better instantly, however if it comes down to what would be required to get either player I would say Lowry as Nash will likely cost us more.

                  I'm starting to get a little disinchanted with Nash actually (sacreligous I know). He seems to be after personal gain rather than chasing a championship. That's the same as Calderon saying he'd play back up to Ford or Jack for the "good of the team". Where's your competetive spark? You should want to win if you're a competitor. Nash, seemingly just wants to set himself up for the future it would seem.
                  I think Nash would give his left nut to win a championship, what i think he's saying is he wont give his left nut, even if dwight howard give his left nut, or kobe gives his left nut along with him. Meaning, he is not going to downgrade himself just so he can win a championship. I think every player's goal in the NBA is to win a championship, but they should be allowed to be realistic too, when they accept within themselves that , hey, maybe there's really only a slim window for me to win a championship, should i squeeze myself through that window, or create my own window and see what happens. Winning a championship is not guaranteed even if he teams up with the best of 'em, at the end of the day, he wants to go to a team and be happy with that decision, not go to a team miserably even with the possibility of winning a championship.

                  I think it's just natural. When you get a job, you work earn a living. You strive hard so the company wont go bankrupt, if the company becomes one of the most successful companies in the world while you're there, thats just addded bonus. But at the end of the day, you work to get paid. Specially now that basketball is more business rather than sport.


                  • #54
                    i think Nash realizes it doesn't matter if you go to a contender, it doesn't necessarily mean they'll win a championship. a lot of things have to go the right way. He doesn't want to go out as a player that flipped teams every couple years chasing something, he'd rather build something himself.


                    • #55
                      It really depends who our future pg would be behind Nash.

                      I pick Nash under the circumstance we draft Lillard (or grab another young PG who Nash can mentor into a starter). As long as we are not put in the position where Nash retires, and the PG spot is our weakest area again, I take Nash.
                      Last edited by Red and White; Mon Jun 25, 2012, 04:23 PM.


                      • #56
                        I think if Nash ends up a Raptor then you really have to find a solid #2. With Nash's back you don't want him playing heavy minutes , especially in the regular season. If you draft a Lillard or Machado or Wroten or whoever it'd be good since Steve could help mentor them a little but they'd also help him just in keeping him fresh. You could play both 20 mins a game, basically.


                        • #57
                          I was first and foremost a Canadian basketball fan. By osmosis I am a raptors fan. The best thing possible for Canadian basketball is Nash in a Raptors uniform


                          • #58
                            As for the main question of this thread, I have not seen any statistical comparison of Nash and Lowry so here goes.

                            According to for this past season.

                            Nash offensive PER is 20.6
                            Lowry offensive PER is 18.7.
                            Average offensive PER is 15, so both men are quite above average, but Nash is at that 20+ PER superstar level whereas Lowry is more in the fringe all star range. Advantage Nash on offense.

                            Nash defensive PER is 13.6
                            Lowry defensive PER is 15.7
                            Average defensive PER is 15, with anything below 15 being above average defense (i.e. Nash held opposing PG to a PER of 13.6, meaning he made opposing PG play below the league average. Whereas Lowry held opposing PG to a PER of 15.7, meaning opposing PG played basically average against Lowry).
                            Once again we have advantage Nash.

                            Now some people say Nash is too old or injury prone (not true). They must not have noticed that Lowry was out for significant time with injury, and was not playing nearly as well upon return, being outplayed by Dragic. Last year Nash played 62 games, Lowry only played 47.

                            According to DC, Toronto needs to add shooters, so let's see who is a better shooter.
                            Nash made 0.9 3pt's per game at 39%
                            Lowry made 1.7 3pt's per game at 37.4%
                            Lowry made more 3pt's last year, albeit at a slightly lower efficiency. Nash is a career 42.8% 3pt shooter, so no one would argue that Lowry is a better shooter than him, but at this point in their careers, it appears Lowry is a more aggressive scorer, so slight advantage for Lowry here.

                            Now lets look at TS% end eFG%.
                            Nash had a TS% of 0.625 and a eFG% of 0.581
                            Lowry had a TS% of 0.558 and a eFG% of 0.486
                            When you look at the advanced statistics, Nash is a much more efficient scorer than Lowry, big advantage to Nash here.

                            Since they are going to be our PG, let's take a look at the bread and butter of PG statistics, assists and turnovers.
                            Nash had 10.7 assists per game to 3.7 TO for a A/TO ratio of 2.89.
                            Lowry had 6.6 assists per game to 2.8 TO for a A/TO ratio of 2.36.
                            Nash is one of those special PG who can consistently average more than 10 assists per game. Lowry is a decent PG, but Nash is special. When it comes to distributing the ball, Nash is still far superior to Lowry, even at this stage of his career.

                            Let's check one more revealing stat for PG, PPR (Pure Point Rating)
                            Nash had a PPR of 10.67
                            Lowry had a PPR of 4.94
                            Once again, this advanced statistic developed by John Hollinger shows that Nash is still a far superior PG to Lowry.

                            As you can see, there are many statistical reasons that Nash would be a superior signing to Lowry. Even at his advanced age, Nash is still a lot better player than Lowry. Not to mention how much sense it makes to boost fan interest, team interest (ESPN and the like), and the image of the franchise (finally being able to retire the Jersey of a superstar who actually wanted to play here). I am going to be greatly dismayed if we don't come out of this offseason with Captain Canada wearing a Raptors uniform.


                            • #59
                              Not Lowry!

                              Tim Chisholm ‏@timpchisholm

                              Now hearing Raps aren’t moving 8 for a PG, only a SF. They are happy with position (relative to wings) with or without Nash this summer.
                              I'd be all over Lowry if it didn't involve #8 - but it does.


                              • #60
                                Matt52 wrote: View Post
                                I'd be all over Lowry if it didn't involve #8 - but it does.
                                That Chisholm tweet tells me a few things that I potentially like
                                - Lowry isn't worth #8 pick and/or isn't a significant enough upgrade over Calderon (or potentially Nash)
                                - legit starting SF is #1 priority via trade (ie: Gay or Iguodala, if the story about Toronto not being interested in Deng is true)