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  • #31
    I am getting more disappointed with every move Colangelo makes (although I don't hate the Ross pick). Going back to when he drafted Davis (which I liked), I didnt understand why he signed a similar player with likely a lower ceiling in Amir Johnson. People often complain about Davis, but he should have been getting more minutes the last 2 years so he would have had a better shot at developing his game.

    The JV pick was probably nice. I know everyone around here loves the guy, but we'll actually see after he plays a few NBA games. He also was gifted to us by Grant in Cleveland, who has made some questionable picks in the last 2 years.

    Now we have gone out and overpaid for Fields, again after just drafting a player who plays the same position. DD, Bayless, Ross would have been a decent off guard rotation, and now one of them is on the way out to make room for Fields.

    This may have been a move by BC to screw over the Knicks in their bid to sign and trade for Nash. In the process he has screwed over New York, Nash, and possibly us as well. I was not thrilled about the prospect of rebuilding around a 38 year old point guard. It seemed like the move was being made as much for business reasons, for Colangelo's next contract, the Raptors ticket and merch sales, and less because it would make us a competitive team in the long run.

    More than likely we would have ended up a low seed in the East, and an early out for the next couple of years until we were back at square one.

    This guy better pull off something impressive or I want him gone before the end of next season.
    Last edited by madeupid25; Thu Jul 5, 2012, 02:14 AM.

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    • #32
      Bring out the big guns .... Time to offer cash on the side: "stfu and just come to Toronto" ala Mikhail Prokorov.


      -- Charles Barkley

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      • #33
        http://chrisross91.wordpress.com/201...or-steve-nash/

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        • #34
          KHD wrote: View Post
          Losing out on Nash is, in my opinion, a massive blow for this team. The basketball reasons (lol) are perhaps secondary to the effects of having the greatest Canadian player of all time refuse to finish his career on Canada's only team, giving up about 30% salary to do so. I don't hold any real ill will towards him, but basically, if Nash won't sign here, who will?

          Thoughts?
          We've traditionally needed to overpay for free agents, and even that won't get us all the free agents we want. That's not going to change. We could build a winner, and that might put us on level footing with a lot of the league but it's unlikely anyone would sign with Toronto for a discount even then. Honestly, I thought that the idea that Nash would make us an attractive free agent destination was a little silly. How many free agents has Nash attracted to Phoenix in recent years? A handful of guys of the the Josh Childress ilk, and those aren't the sort of guys who can turn a franchise around. Surprise, guys who come here are doing it for the money.

          What's the worst that could come of this? An opportunity was missed, or perhaps the perceived opportunity never existed at all. All those free agents that weren't signing with us before will continue to not sign with us. Some smug ESPN writers will get to write nasty columns at our expense. Maybe it tarnishes BC's reputation so much that it's difficult for him to do business. Guess what, there's an easy fix for that, too.

          So are we in trouble? No more or less than we've been since the organization came into existence. Look, 90% of the teams in the league are slightly improving, slightly declining, or staying about the same. We're slightly improving from last year to this year and probably to next year, and as a lottery team, that means we're moving toward the mean. If you're the sort of sports fan who likes getting angry, there's lots to get angry about. If you're the sort of sports fan who likes being optimistic, there's lots to be optimistic about. The reality is probably somewhere between what those two camps believe.

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          • #35
            Lark Benson wrote: View Post
            The Mavs just lost out on Deron Williams and Nash, then Jason Terry jumped ship for Boston. Think they're 'in trouble'? Free agents are fickle, and all it takes is an all-star or two turn perception around (see: LA Clippers and Minnesota Timberwolves).

            The franchise is fine, all that's really happened is that the Raps have had a string of draft picks that haven't fully panned out or developed into the kind of players you can build around. A lot of mid-market teams wander the NBA wilderness for a lot longer than that before they land the stars needed to guide them back to playoffs. The Raps just need to be patient, use this year to see what they've got in their young players, maximize flexibility going forward and then make some tough decisions about who to keep and who to trade.

            Unfortunately BC is the team's GM and his job on the line, which means my answer could change in the coming days or weeks depending on how badly he fucks it up.
            I don't think we're in trouble but comparing them with the Mavs is just silly.
            your pal,
            ebrian

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            • #36
              ebrian wrote: View Post
              I don't think we're in trouble but comparing them with the Mavs is just silly.
              Alright, here's a better comparison: The Suns have a penny pinching owner that has directly killed his team's chances of winning a title during the Nash era in multiple seasons, are a small market team with nothing to attract free agents except their training staff (and crazy-hot weather if you happen to like that), their best player just walked, and the remaining quality talent on the roster includes Marcin Gortat and....Jared Dudely?

              Yet despite that, they've agreed with Eric Gordon to a max contract, and agreed to terms with Dragic and Beasley. A year ago if you asked a Suns fan if the franchise was in trouble, they'd probably have said yes under the expectations that Nash would leave and it would be difficult to fill that void without trading him for significant assets. Turns out they've managed to. Same thing with Dallas: ask their fans and they'll probably tell you that losing Terry and losing out on Williams (and likely Dwight Howard next summer) is a crippling blow to the franchise's 'rebuild on the fly with flexibility' plans. But they'll be fine in the long run.

              And so will the Raps. This may not have been their summer, but they still have a lot of young assets, a good coach, a flexibility. As long as BC doesn't mess that up with a panic signing or trade, they'll go into next offseason in a strong position, and the results might be very different.

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              • #37
                Al Business

                To Whom It May Concern,

                This is to advise you that Toronto Raptors are not in trouble, no more then any other team that also lost the NASH lotto.

                Nash's decision to choose one team over another has nothing to do with hating Toronto, or Canada etc. It has all to do with Business. Its about money, family and best opportunities. You and I at our present job would do the same - we'd look out for ourselves and our families first. Nothing wrong with that.

                Nash's decision has no impact on Canada Basketball...but to say such things will sell papers and sports writer will exploit this to rally your emotions. Remember you and I as fans are $$$ to sports writers, MLSE etc. They give us nothing entertainment, we give them $$$. its all about money.

                In addition, please consider that Toronto's offer of $36M is much higher as compared to L.A. and NY etc. But he wil make more in those markets due to other in-direct sources, TV ratings, ads...they are bigger markets...so if LA pays him $20M he still has opportunity to rake in another $20M plus on other items in L.A. through appearences, TV, fund raising, endorements etc. TO is not at that level yet.

                ITS ALL ABOUT MONEY....Nash did would you and I would do...he did what lebron did...money and winning. Nobody hates TDOT. Is OKC, MILWACKY OR MINNIAPOLIS OR PORTLAND better then TDOT? Yes, only because they win and we don't. Where would you rather live...T.O. culture, entertainment, scene is better then above fosho..but we suck and they dont win well..Minny does...and thats all that matter...Its about money and the winning culture...

                Lets move on...and all the best to NASH and we hope he does well. BC did what he should've and I'm sure he has PLAN B. He is a good GM...and if you dont like him...please advise me who'd you rather have in TO? EACH city has its strengths and weaknesses....a good GM has to work through them all.

                All the best to NASH and Toronto...its better this way

                The end
                It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up.


                Muhammad Ali

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                • #38
                  Troubles:
                  1) a GM who does not have even a mediocre trading record who exhibits impatient tendencies
                  2) no proven stars
                  3) not free agent destination ( Nash )
                  4) 4 years in lottery
                  Positives:
                  1) stable ownership
                  2) stable attendance and media support
                  3) great business model
                  4) youth
                  5) cap flexibility
                  6) Dwayne Casey
                  7) a great 2011 pick who would be a consensus #2 this year according to Ford and Simmons... and I even like this years pick
                  Perspective:
                  The Nash offer went from being rediculous in the US media when Toronto made it to being seen as brilliant when the Knicks were ready to mortgage everything with their counter offer. I was lukewarm to the whole thing at best and for those who want to boo him it is your right, he did lead us on somewhat, but should a father be half a continent away from his kids if he doesn't have to?
                  Last edited by meductic; Thu Jul 5, 2012, 12:19 PM.

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                  • #39
                    at least we're getting some love somewhere

                    thekidet evan turner
                    I'm glad Steve Nash is in the West still and not in Toronto next year or else the Raptors wouldve been even tougher to play!

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                    • #40
                      Would tax breaks help this franchise lure free agents?

                      One thing that was talked about with the Heat is that that Florida doesn't impose personal income taxes on athletes. One thing I always hear about Toronto is that the taxes are too high. We already have too many other negatives for coming here. I would like to remove "taxes are too high" from that list. Is it maybe time for MLSE and other sports Franchises in Canada to start to lobby for some tax breaks for athletes.

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                      • #41
                        Pill wrote: View Post
                        Would tax breaks help this franchise lure free agents?

                        One thing that was talked about with the Heat is that that Florida doesn't impose personal income taxes on athletes. One thing I always hear about Toronto is that the taxes are too high. We already have too many other negatives for coming here. I would like to remove "taxes are too high" from that list. Is it maybe time for MLSE and other sports Franchises in Canada to start to lobby for some tax breaks for athletes.
                        That's one of the reasons why have to overpay on paper (to compensate for the higher taxes, and the conversion to US dollars).

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                        • #42
                          Pill wrote: View Post
                          Would tax breaks help this franchise lure free agents?

                          One thing that was talked about with the Heat is that that Florida doesn't impose personal income taxes on athletes. One thing I always hear about Toronto is that the taxes are too high. We already have too many other negatives for coming here. I would like to remove "taxes are too high" from that list. Is it maybe time for MLSE and other sports Franchises in Canada to start to lobby for some tax breaks for athletes.
                          Yes!

                          In this day and age when so many Canadian citizens are struggling to make ends meet, we should lobby the government to reduce the tax burden of millionaire foreign athletes!

                          That's an easy and fair proposition to sell.

                          /Sarcasm=off

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                          • #43
                            anyways, to answer the original question, i don't think we're in trouble, no. we're the same team we were last year with a couple new wings and a motor guy up front along with big Val. so, we're improved!

                            last year if bargs stays healthy we're a 7 or 8 seed. with what we have and the new guys i say we're about there again. if we get lowry i think you're looking at 5 or 6 seed. BC is going to do something. theres NO way we enter the season with the same roster when he's in a contract year. he's going to upgrade at least one spot significantly.

                            the raptors aren't in trouble. we're disappointed, but we're not in trouble. yet.
                            @sweatpantsjer

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                            • #44
                              A couple of things:

                              1) Raptor players are paid in US dollars. Any money they convert to Canadian dollars is likely for walking around money (assumption on my part).

                              2) The Raptors do have a mechanism in place. I'm not sure the specifics of it but it is there.

                              3) Does anyone know what the federal US tax rate is for someone making over $1M? It is about 35%. Each state has a different income tax with places like Florida and Texas being 0% and places like NY State being over 10% and California being 10.3%.

                              So the tax rates are anywhere from 35-45% in the US.

                              Federal rate in Canada is 29% over $132K and 11.6% over $78K. for a total of around 40% for a Toronto Raptor.


                              Then you have to factor in that each player is taxed in the state/province the game is played. So only 41 games per year are taxed in Toronto for a Raptor.

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                              • #45
                                Are the Raptors in trouble? Really? Let's not mince words about this. They're dead in the water. Drowned like a rat. It's over. There's no conceivable way for us to build a really good and competitive team. It's not going to happen
                                Not with the fall out and perception that this is going to justify and perpetuate.

                                'Yeah, did you hear about Nash, even Captain Canada doesn't want to play for those crappy Raptors.'
                                'I heard it was because he wanted to be close to his kids.'
                                'Yeah, Phoenix is 600 miles away from LA. That was just a bullshit excuse so he could chase a ring.'

                                Between this and the Heat winning the wrong way...the game is different now. The spoiled players reverse engineering championship teams...the rigged dunk contest...I think I'm done. I was in the stands and watched Mighty Mouse beat the greatest basketball team of all time. I used to work out and listen to the raptors games on the radio because I didn't have a tv. My wife and I have on a few occasions sang the national anthem at the ACC Christmas games. Seriously. No shit.

                                But it's gotten to the point where I find myself watching games hoping other teams lose instead of teams winning. That's not healthy. The vitriol on these sites and message boards has gotten dark and mean-spirited because it's easier in some ways to go there than to admit how little hope there really is.

                                Anyway, rant over. I was the hardcore guy who is heading out the back door now because I can't take the perpetual disappointment that goes along with being a Raps fan. I used to tease my friends who were leafs fans about needing to be medicated...yeah be careful what you mock. That shit comes right back at you.

                                Peace...

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