Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Should Raptors be on the phone with Denver?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Unfortunately it is ludicrous in hindsight and in your opinion.

    There is nothing new in your post that has not already been contradicted.... and I can offer nothing new that has already not been contradicted either. It comes down to what side of the fence you view the few known facts.

    The reality is no one knows if Bosh told the organization if he was leaving or not. Without a direct answer from him and public denials of rumours stating he wanted out, I imagine BC took him at face value. Clearly this was the wrong thing to do and it also flew in the face of a long history of NBA free agency minus one notable exception.

    Legally and contractually Bosh owed Toronto nothing and, as it turns out, he gave them nothing. Morally and ethically one could paint any picture they want based on their values.

    In the end, the league has a new rule: your guy refuses a max deal, trade him. While extensions in the new CBA are shorter and offer less guaranteed money, sign and trades are also shorter and offer less guaranteed money as does signing with a new team in UFA. I guess they are a wash and the extra year, $20M dollars, and 7.5% raises will be harder to turn down with the S&T gone.
    Sure we are flogging a dead horse, but the problem is that the perception remains. Bosh said he was going to weigh his options and test free agency and that's exactly what he did. The only thing he could have done better would have been to actually sit down with BC in the summer and allow himself to get wooed, ala Nash and then reject us, after faking an 'agonizing decision'. Not giving MLSE that courtesy interview is probably the biggest mistake he made in the process.

    Again, the core issue is where was Toronto was on his priority list and probability of success. Just about everybody who wasn't emotionally attached to the Raptors could see that we were a long shot. BC has never come out and directly said that Bosh committed. It's all innuendo based on "something that happened during the all-star break". But like I said, the 2010 all-star break is irrelevant - that was far too late in the process for BC to start making strategic assessments on probability of success. As far as facts, I can only go by published comments from Bosh and BC, and Bosh comes out looking clean.

    Comment


    • golden wrote: View Post
      Sure we are flogging a dead horse, but the problem is that the perception remains. Bosh said he was going to weigh his options and test free agency and that's exactly what he did. The only thing he could have done better would have been to actually sit down with BC in the summer and allow himself to get wooed, ala Nash and then reject us, after faking an 'agonizing decision'. Not giving MLSE that courtesy interview is probably the biggest mistake he made in the process.

      Again, the core issue is where was Toronto was on his priority list and probability of success. Just about everybody who wasn't emotionally attached to the Raptors could see that we were a long shot. BC has never come out and directly said that Bosh committed. It's all innuendo based on "something that happened during the all-star break". But like I said, the 2010 all-star break is irrelevant - that was far too late in the process for BC to start making strategic assessments on probability of success. As far as facts, I can only go by published comments from Bosh and BC, and Bosh comes out looking clean.
      First, I have no idea what this Bosh debate has to do with the thread about BC contacting the Nuggets in the wake of the Howard/Iggy deal.

      Second, I'm pretty sure this Bosh debate has been covered in various, more topical threads before.

      Comment


      • Gawd another rerun of the Bosh departure!! There seems to be one significant item in BC's decision making not brought up in the discussion.... and that is taking Bosh's word at value on a sign and trade cooperative commitment in case he decided against Toronto. BC seemed to accept at some point around the trade deadline (2010...which in my view was too late in terms of getting good value) that Bosh may well leave but comforted somewhat that he had a field of teams to play with to extract value.

        BC trusted Bosh and got burnt and was probably why he was so pissed in the aftermath. Again, Bosh & Lebron were perfectly within their rights to go to another team....it's the way they did it. In Bosh's case he misled and lied.

        For those making the argument "They took a shave by signing collectively in Miami"...I think not. Florida doesnt have a state tax and Iam sure resultant endorsements could easily lessen if not eliminate that pain.


        http://sports.nationalpost.com/2010/...work-together/

        Comment


        • golden wrote: View Post
          An internet poll is a perfect example of how the general basketball community outside of Toronto viewed the Raptors chances of hanging onto Bosh, well in advance. Most people thought the Raps chances were extremely low.
          My point was, who cares what "most people" thought? The majority of the general basketball community probably got their opinions by listening to Stephen A Smith. Like everyone else says, no one except Bosh and CB know, not even Stephen A Smith, what really went down. But we do like to guess about it.

          Oh...back to topic...um....sure...call Denver.
          Two beer away from being two beers away.

          Comment


          • Bendit wrote: View Post
            Gawd another rerun of the Bosh departure!! There seems to be one significant item in BC's decision making not brought up in the discussion.... and that is taking Bosh's word at value on a sign and trade cooperative commitment in case he decided against Toronto. BC seemed to accept at some point around the trade deadline (2010...which in my view was too late in terms of getting good value) that Bosh may well leave but comforted somewhat that he had a field of teams to play with to extract value.



            BC trusted Bosh and got burnt and was probably why he was so pissed in the aftermath. Again, Bosh & Lebron were perfectly within their rights to go to another team....it's the way they did it. In Bosh's case he misled and lied.

            For those making the argument "They took a shave by signing collectively in Miami"...I think not. Florida doesnt have a state tax and Iam sure resultant endorsements could easily lessen if not eliminate that pain.


            http://sports.nationalpost.com/2010/...work-together/
            Well BC did get a s&t for Bosh. Problem is, like almost every sign and trade that has happened, it was for a fraction of the value. That was always the built in risk... if it got to the point where the Raps were goign to sign and trade Bosh, any value of note was gone.

            Comment


            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
              They were 5th heading in to the all-star weekend. If the Raptors went out their best player, you think that would go over well with the fan base?
              Agreed, and 5th at the All-Star break is a team that would be lucky to make it to the 2nd round and we weren't good enough to beat any of the teams above us at that point.

              We had no chance to win anything, but good work on bolding part of my post and then basically agreeing with it in different words.

              Comment


              • golden wrote: View Post
                Sure we are flogging a dead horse, but the problem is that the perception remains. Bosh said he was going to weigh his options and test free agency and that's exactly what he did. The only thing he could have done better would have been to actually sit down with BC in the summer and allow himself to get wooed, ala Nash and then reject us, after faking an 'agonizing decision'. Not giving MLSE that courtesy interview is probably the biggest mistake he made in the process.

                Again, the core issue is where was Toronto was on his priority list and probability of success. Just about everybody who wasn't emotionally attached to the Raptors could see that we were a long shot. BC has never come out and directly said that Bosh committed. It's all innuendo based on "something that happened during the all-star break". But like I said, the 2010 all-star break is irrelevant - that was far too late in the process for BC to start making strategic assessments on probability of success. As far as facts, I can only go by published comments from Bosh and BC, and Bosh comes out looking clean.
                Sorry, but you are confusing an opinion with a fact.

                The perception remains because there is a very real possibility he did mislead Toronto. The very fact he refused to give Toronto/MLSE an interview is yet another piece of circumstantial evidence supporting the idea his decision to leave Toronto was made up in advance.

                No one knows what he told Colangelo or the organization in private. Personally, I don't believe he told them, "I want out" or "I am not going to resign."

                This thread has definitely got off track but it isn't about "boo-hoo Bosh left us." The whole issue, at this point, for Rap fans appears to be about the complaint BC returned 'nothing' for Bosh. For those who say, "BC should have got more!!!" well how much more is he going to get for a guy refusing to sign an extension with ANY other team? The only team willing to take him on without an extension was Houston. But what were they willing to offer? Aaron Brooks? Shoot first PG on a team already with 2 other mediocre starters? Scola? Another UFA who is a big step down and was eventually resigned for a horrible contract given his age and declining ability. Ariza? Landry? Sure but how is that going to help Toronto? Ariza already spurned Toronto despite more money and had Turk at SF and just drafted DeRozan at SG. The Raps didn't need another backup PF.

                The Raptors were better off doing what they did: play out the season and the at-the-time very likely playoff berth rather than taking on players that would not have helped in the event Bosh left for nothing. Taking the Rockets deal would have only further exacerbated the problem the team already had with Bosh: no flexibility or cap room to improve placing cap of a .500 team on any future prospects.


                In the end the best thing likely has happened for Toronto. The Raptors are no worse off than when Bosh was here. At the time they had a max contract with no supporting cast and little-to-no ability to acquire talent upgrades. Now they have a supporting cast and 2 lottery picks with no max contract talent but they still have the ability to get one. The Raps could easily make a move or 2 to create room to sign a max contract in free agency or possibly take advantage of new CBA/tax rules and get one via trade. Both are long shots but so is drafting a franchise talent.

                Comment


                • Letter N wrote: View Post
                  Agreed, and 5th at the All-Star break is a team that would be lucky to make it to the 2nd round and we weren't good enough to beat any of the teams above us at that point.

                  We had no chance to win anything, but good work on bolding part of my post and then basically agreeing with it in different words.
                  So a team that was in the lottery the previous season with 33 wins is now 5th at all-star weekend and (if memory serves correct) is a top 5 team in the league since December goes and trades their perennial, 25 year old All-Star to the only team wiling to take him on without an extension for basically scraps that would have made the Raptors no better long term (and most likely worse) than they currently were and that goes over well with the fan base? C'mon.

                  Games are played for a reason. You think Philly would have beat Chicago without Rose getting injured? Extreme example? Yes but you play the games and let the chips fall where they may. Unfortunately a perfect storm of events happened immediately at the trade deadline (Bosh sprained ankle) and the season fell a part.

                  The reply to golden and the trade with Houston is also applicable to this post but I won't bother going in to that again.
                  Last edited by mcHAPPY; Mon Aug 13, 2012, 03:24 PM. Reason: word left out

                  Comment


                  • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                    Sorry, but you are confusing an opinion with a fact.

                    The perception remains because there is a very real possibility he did mislead Toronto. The very fact he refused to give Toronto/MLSE an interview is yet another piece of circumstantial evidence supporting the idea his decision to leave Toronto was made up in advance.

                    No one knows what he told Colangelo or the organization in private. Personally, I don't believe he told them, "I want out" or "I am not going to resign."


                    .
                    Matt, this is really weak compared to your normal high standards. Anything is possible, yes, but the circumstantial evidence is extremely consistent with Toronto being the worst case scenario & lowest probability option from Bosh's perspective, right from the moment he didn't sign the extension up until the Miami S&T. It's as simple as that, yet you still have some posters stating defacto that Bosh 'lied and misled' because something that had almost no chance of happening, actually didn't happen. Bosh kept all his options open right until the end. He said he would and he did. That's smart business.

                    Sorry for taking this thread on a 1000km off-road detour. I'm done on this.
                    Last edited by golden; Mon Aug 13, 2012, 05:58 PM.

                    Comment


                    • golden wrote: View Post
                      That's high risk decision-making, and he got burned.
                      BC is paid a lot of money to assess risk/reward and plan scenarios to mitigate risk
                      I missed these two quotes but this is spot on.

                      The entire Bosh scenario, as far as I'm concerned, was just terrible risk management.

                      The Reward - Chris Bosh as a franchise player at a max deal

                      The Risk - the value of Chris Bosh in a trade from 2008-2010 + the cost of attempts to retain Bosh along the way

                      Factor in the question of whether Bosh would ever even resign no matter what happened, and it was buying a $100 lottery ticket, at 100 - 1 odds that paid out $101. Just a complete waste.

                      Comment


                      • golden wrote: View Post
                        Matt, this is really weak compared to your normal high standards. Anything is possible, yes, but the circumstantial evidence is extremely consistent with Toronto being the worst case scenario & lowest probability option from Bosh's perspective, right from the moment he didn't sign the extension up until the Miami S&T. It's as simple as that, yet you still have some posters stating defacto that Bosh 'lied and misled' because something that had almost no chance of happening, actually didn't happen. Bosh kept all his options open right until the end. He said he would and he did. That's smart business.

                        Sorry for taking this thread on a 1000km off-road detour. I'm done on this.
                        Once again there is a very real possibility Bosh lied and mislead. The fact it doesn't jive with your opinion of events doesn't make it any less of a possibility. The only people who know that for certain are Bosh, his agent, and Colangelo. What we do know is Bosh's public statements about his preferences were nothing like what actually happened.

                        Considering you quoted my reply but left out the most relevant 2/3's of the post, I will post it again:

                        This thread has definitely got off track but it isn't about "boo-hoo Bosh left us." The whole issue, at this point, for Rap fans appears to be about the complaint BC returned 'nothing' for Bosh. For those who say, "BC should have got more!!!" well how much more is he going to get for a guy refusing to sign an extension with ANY other team? The only team willing to take him on without an extension was Houston. But what were they willing to offer? Aaron Brooks? Shoot first PG on a team already with 2 other mediocre starters? Scola? Another UFA who is a big step down and was eventually resigned for a horrible contract given his age and declining ability. Ariza? Landry? Sure but how is that going to help Toronto? Ariza already spurned Toronto despite more money and had Turk at SF and just drafted DeRozan at SG. The Raps didn't need another backup PF.

                        The Raptors were better off doing what they did: play out the season and the at-the-time very likely playoff berth rather than taking on players that would not have helped in the event Bosh left for nothing. Taking the Rockets deal would have only further exacerbated the problem the team already had with Bosh: no flexibility or cap room to improve placing cap of a .500 team on any future prospects.


                        In the end the best thing likely has happened for Toronto. The Raptors are no worse off than when Bosh was here. At the time they had a max contract with no supporting cast and little-to-no ability to acquire talent upgrades. Now they have a supporting cast and 2 lottery picks with no max contract talent but they still have the ability to get one. The Raps could easily make a move or 2 to create room to sign a max contract in free agency or possibly take advantage of new CBA/tax rules and get one via trade. Both are long shots but so is drafting a franchise talent.
                        In conclusion, in my opinion:

                        1) The Raps had very little leverage to get any value for Bosh due to no extension on his part with ANYONE,
                        2) The Raps were better doing what they did rather than taking back bad contracts with Houston,
                        3) The Raps are in a better place now than they would have been trading for Ariza, Scola, Landry, or Brooks.

                        Comment


                        • Craiger wrote: View Post
                          I missed these two quotes but this is spot on.

                          The entire Bosh scenario, as far as I'm concerned, was just terrible risk management.

                          The Reward - Chris Bosh as a franchise player at a max deal

                          The Risk - the value of Chris Bosh in a trade from 2008-2010 + the cost of attempts to retain Bosh along the way

                          Factor in the question of whether Bosh would ever even resign no matter what happened, and it was buying a $100 lottery ticket, at 100 - 1 odds that paid out $101. Just a complete waste.
                          When it became apparent that trading Bosh might be a legit option he had already refused to sign an extension with anyone. At that point his trade value was already diminished. Houston's bits and pieces were all that was on the table. Looking at Morey's history in attempts to land a big time player he has a history (according to HoopsWorld.com writers - namely the Rocket guy Bill Ingram who is useless except when it comes to Houston) of overvaluing players and prospects at the bargaining table which is why he lost out on Howard.

                          The argument here is Bosh should have been traded in 2008 when they were one year removed from an Atlantic division championship and still a playoff team lead by a perennial 23/24 year old 20/10 all star who was 1 year in to an extension.

                          The next argument is he should have been to trade him in 2009. That is not a bad point - with the benefit of hindsight.

                          2010 is not an option because he had the opt out which made financial sense for him to exercise. He was not going to sign an extension with ANY team nor was he willing to waive his player option for year 4 or 5 of his contract. No team was going to give a fair trade in that situation.


                          People make it sound so easy. It is pretty much like the guy who says, "Oh yeah. If I was in the market I totally would have sold out in October 2007, bought back in March 2009, sold in early May 2010 and actually shorted for that flash crash, bought again in July 2010, shorted in very early August 2011 with leverage, bought back in October 2011." Wow, that is impressive. How would you have done that? "Oh quite easy. The signs were all there in the papers." Really? Well shit. What is going to happen this fall? "Ask me in the winter."

                          Comment


                          • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                            When it became apparent that trading Bosh might be a legit option he had already refused to sign an extension with anyone. At that point his trade value was already diminished. Houston's bits and pieces were all that was on the table. Looking at Morey's history in attempts to land a big time player he has a history (according to HoopsWorld.com writers - namely the Rocket guy Bill Ingram who is useless except when it comes to Houston) of overvaluing players and prospects at the bargaining table which is why he lost out on Howard.

                            The argument here is Bosh should have been traded in 2008 when they were one year removed from an Atlantic division championship and still a playoff team lead by a perennial 23/24 year old 20/10 all star who was 1 year in to an extension.

                            The next argument is he should have been to trade him in 2009. That is not a bad point - with the benefit of hindsight.

                            2010 is not an option because he had the opt out which made financial sense for him to exercise. He was not going to sign an extension with ANY team nor was he willing to waive his player option for year 4 or 5 of his contract. No team was going to give a fair trade in that situation.


                            People make it sound so easy. It is pretty much like the guy who says, "Oh yeah. If I was in the market I totally would have sold out in October 2007, bought back in March 2009, sold in early May 2010 and actually shorted for that flash crash, bought again in July 2010, shorted in very early August 2011 with leverage, bought back in October 2011." Wow, that is impressive. How would you have done that? "Oh quite easy. The signs were all there in the papers." Really? Well shit. What is going to happen this fall? "Ask me in the winter."
                            Trading Bosh became a 'legit option' the minute he turned down a contract extension.

                            People were saying that Bosh was leaving as early as 2008. Not only fans but also those 'in the know'.. I've already posted evidence of it.

                            Sorry to hear you may have been burned in the stock market, but you can go back and find plenty of people in 2007who warned what was happening... just because you didn't listen to them or believe them doesn't mean they didn't give a warning. The fact the crash happened proved they were right. Yelling as loud as you can that "no one could have really known" doesn't change some did.

                            (PS guess you just can't give up on the hindsight position can you? I've already shown it to be bunk, but stick with it perhaps history will change)

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              People make it sound so easy. It is pretty much like the guy who says, "Oh yeah. If I was in the market I totally would have sold out in October 2007, bought back in March 2009, sold in early May 2010 and actually shorted for that flash crash, bought again in July 2010, shorted in very early August 2011 with leverage, bought back in October 2011." Wow, that is impressive. How would you have done that? "Oh quite easy. The signs were all there in the papers." Really? Well shit. What is going to happen this fall? "Ask me in the winter."
                              That sounds a lot like my first experience on the stockmarket when I was just about 18. I had done pretty well in some investement competitions and (together with my brother who bankrolled me for half the money - don't know if I said sorry yet, I should) bought some put-options on the index (AEX) for about 1000 or 1500 guilders (pre-Euro time) because the German bank lowered the interest rate. Within a few hours they more than doubled, but I sold too late and we lost more than half the money. Immediately I had another great idea and again I was right, but again sold too late. So, within two days we lost something like 1500 guilders and most of my savings. Had I had hindsight before we would have made about 4000.

                              Comment


                              • Craiger wrote: View Post
                                Trading Bosh became a 'legit option' the minute he turned down a contract extension.

                                (PS guess you just can't give up on the hindsight position can you? I've already shown it to be bunk, but stick with it perhaps history will change)
                                i don't think it did. you are arguing against hindsight but using it very well. until bosh and lebron didn't sign extensions there was no clues as to what happens after. prior to that players always got their money. if what happened, didn't happen then carmelo and dwill would have been the firsts.

                                you can take all the clues and everything speculators might have said and pretend they are facts but b.c talked to the man. like the begining of jerry mcguire a handshake deal was good enough for him. yes he didn't trade bosh, yes the team should have gotten more and yes responsibility falls on b.c because he is ultimately in charge.

                                take me for example, or you. when you or i tell people we are making plans with them we do it. or maybe we make plans together and then the day comes for the plans to go through and i say nope it's mountain climbing or nothing. and you're all like but i need two people to paddle the canoe. and i'm all oh i am sorry we are working together here, so it's mountain climbing or nothing because we are a team. and then you realize we are not a team and i have been smiling in your face for months since we made that plan but made other plans on the side i told you absolutely nothing about.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X